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Discussion in 'Studio Techniques' started by simon binks, Aug 2, 2009.

  1. simon binks

    simon binks New Member


    I am about to upgrade my studio, having been forced to purchase a new 2.26 8 core Mac Pro, after my G5 died.

    So much is not compatible with Intel machines, I decided to upgrade the entire studio.

    The big question is obviously converters.

    That would seem to be a simple choice: Apogee. I am getting an Antelope OCX (and already have a Big Ben) so don't need those features of the Apogee AD/DA16x series. Extensive research (sufficient research) revealed that the only real difference between the Rosetta and the AD/DA16x Series is the inclusion of the Big Ben clocking. Obviously I have that covered twice.

    Two Rosetta 800s seemed the next logical choice.

    However, nobody can tell me how to go out digitally to my Apogee MiniDAC to monitor these without losing two channels. That's expensive real-estate. I am upgrading from a MOTU HD:192, which despite having lesser converters, has far superior, practical connectivity/expandability.

    The MOTU has 12 channels, none of which I have to lose to monitor, AES out and in, Firewire connection to the PCI-424x card, which itself has room for three more connections. It also has AES Word and conventional Word Clock connections. I go out the AES output and into an Apogee MiniDac for monitoring, digitally, without losing any channels.

    I have been in touch with Apogee support, who tell me that the only way to monitor is to lose two analogue outputs. Despite what seems to be an obvious solution, I evidently can't use the ADAT/SMUX or AES I/O on the back of the Rosetta 800.

    Anybody? I am also considering a Lynx Aurora 16, where I just have to buy another PCI card for monitoring (again, expensive real-estate on a Mac Pro but at least doable).

    With the decline in mixers in the booming home-recording market, I can't believe that high end companies such as Apogee (the very name) are designing machines with such limitations.

    Unless I've got it wrong. Please tell me I have it wrong and there is a simple answer to this. If I've got it wrong, there are some significant people out there with insufficient skills of comprehension.

    Thanks Guys.

  3. Orren Merton

    Orren Merton Logic Samurai / Administrator Staff Member

    I don't know enough about Apogee's routing software or interfaces to give you any ideas relating to how best to use their stuff.

    However, I can assure you that with Metric Halo interfaces you can use the analog and digital I/O simultaneously. Also, my Metric Halo ULN8, in addition to its eight analog outputs on DB25, has two dedicated analog 1/4 outputs that are stereo monitor outputs (mirrors of analog 1/2). Of course, the ULN8 comes with AES, the 2882 and ULN2 2d comes with ADAT, etc.

    The ULN8 is a very pricey unit, so it's certainly not for everyone. But if you're already looking at Rosetta stuff, you might be able to stretch for one.

  4. simon binks

    simon binks New Member

    Thanks Orren. Hard to find a reseller but saw one expensive reference. These seem more expansive than Apogee or Mytek, so they must be good. Time to contemplate. The functions and logistics are present and clear. Why can't Apogee be?

    Logic Samurai? I used to collect genuine Samurai swords off returned soldiers and their kin. Had a collection of 100 at one stage.
  5. simon binks

    simon binks New Member

    P.S. Orren: That should be expensive, not expansive, though the latter may be true as well.

    As an Administrator, how can I shorten my log in name? At signup, I didn't see an option and now that I'm registered, can't find a way to change it to something simple like, I dunno, simon binks.

    Domo Origato Orren San.
  6. Ginger

    Ginger Member

    Hi Orren,

    what roundtrip latency value does Logic 9 show for Metric Halo ULN8 (with the 32 buffer setting, 44.1 khz)?

  7. Markdvc

    Markdvc Administrator Staff Member

    I'm not Orren San, but I did change your username to Simon Binks, you will need to use that to sign in, your password will not have changed. If you have any problems, please mail me privately at mark <at> logic-users-group <dot>com

  8. Orren Merton

    Orren Merton Logic Samurai / Administrator Staff Member

    How cool! I love samurai swords! :)

    I've always been fascinated by the samurai philosophy and way of life. I know that in America "ninjas" are generally seen as more fascinating because they're seen as more mysterious, but I've always been more interested in Samurai. The honor code, the system of weapons and armor, the fact that they are visible, rather than invisible, always intrigued me, made them seem more noble and knightly.

    And since there is an unpublished Logic expert in San Francisco who calls himself the "Logic Ninja" and dispenses (generally very useful) video tutorials, tongue-firmly-in-cheek, I thought it made sense that since I'm a published author (in other words, I am "visible" unlike a "ninja") it made sense that I would be a Logic Samurai. :D


    PS—for the psychologically minded and/or educated, have fun reconciling my obviously goth avatar with my affinity for "white knights" and other noble imagery... :hippy:
  9. Orren Merton

    Orren Merton Logic Samurai / Administrator Staff Member

    Hi Ginger,

    Now you're getting into some of my very favorite features of my ULN8! As a guitar player, low latency is extremely important to me, as is a very high quality DI input. The ULN8 has the single best active DI inputs of any device I have ever used, bar none. They take "Hi-Z" very seriously—for those who like to get technical, I believe that they are about 3MΩ DI inputs, which is sensitive enough for even the most passive of passive pickups, piezos, etc. Really fantastic. It also sounds really full and musical on both guitar and bass. And the DI is coupled with the MIO Drivers which stand as some of the very lowest latency drivers available for any Core Audio device.

    At a 44.1kHz sample rate, the round trip latency shown by Logic 9 is:
    • 4.5ms at 32 samples
    • 6.0ms at 64 samples
    • 8.9ms at 128 samples

    I am giving you all three values above because for my own personal sensitivity (insensitivity?) to latency, I cannot detect when playing any latency 9ms or below. So this means I can keep the buffer set at 128 samples, which requires less CPU giving me more power for mixing. I know others who like to reduce the buffer to 32 when recording and then boost it to 256+ samples when mixing, but on my 4-core "Vintage" Mac Pro I find that keeping the buffer at 128 is just fine.

  10. simon binks

    simon binks New Member

    Thanks Orren, This is off-topic and non-Logic, but if you wis to know more about Japanese culture, Samurai's their swords and beyond, email me at I've lived in Japan twice, studied karate, Aikido, Iai-Do (the fast-draw and cut of the Japanese sword), kenjustsu and much about the history and culture of Japan.

    Extraordinary people.

    I've been taken down into the catacombs of the National Museum (where no one is allowed) in Ueno Park by Nobuo Ogasawara, curator of the museum and author of seminal books on Japanese Swords.

    I also had the fortune to meet Willis Hawley, who undertook the massive task of translating all known Kaji (Japanese swordsmiths) into a vast tomb in English, used by all Western sword collectors.

    He welcomed me into his palatial mansion in the Hollywood Hills, where he showed me many masterpieces, including a Chinese wall hanging which he claimed to be worth more than his house.

    Unfortunately, he died not long after, a very old but accomplished gentleman. He had just been robbed and I think that shock of the invasion killed him. A gentle man of fading values and old money, he would not have understood the mindset of the thieves. I spent some time trying to locate those thieves, but could not.
  11. HKC

    HKC Senior member

    This may be a bit of an old thread but I try anyway. Why hasn't anybody mentioned the RME stuff. The Raydat combined with the QS converters is one of the fastest combos around and cheaper than Apogee, though not by much.
    I have actually tried many converters now and if you ask me all of them sound good, sometimes different from each other but still good. From the midprised to the more expensive ones that is.
    It seems to me that the only selling point in converters at the moment is how fast they are and in that competition Apogee and RME are very fast. I assume that the competition aren't since they would otherwise mention it I'd think.
  12. simon binks

    simon binks New Member

    Converter Resolution

    Thanks guys. I've purchased Apogee AD16x/DA16x's. And a new Mac Pro 2.26 8 Core, Komplete 6, Waves Platinum, Antelope OCX, Neumann U87, MA 200, etc, etc.

    To go with what I already have.

    See you in debtor's prison.

    Oh, I'm putting advertisements in the paper to collect Japanese swords again, so if you need anybody to be half the man they are...

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