Combo Remapper - use score text and symbols to switch articulations
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Fine, I'll start....

Discussion in 'The Moan Zone' started by mk3, Mar 29, 2009.

  1. mk3

    mk3 Senior member

    What's this? No one has anything to complain about?

    Fine, I'll start!

    Apple, please, more frequent updates! We love you, but our love is unrequited!

    In between the major paid updates, let's have more frequent small, free, bug-fix and improvement updates. We will feel like you care. It's free promotion for you!

    (That was a very polite post for this section, wasn't it?)

  3. Markdvc

    Markdvc Administrator Staff Member

    I am sure we would all like to see more frequent updates to Logic, as well as more communication from Apple. I would regard that as more of a broad wish than a complaint (or the inferred complaint is that we don't receive updates as frequently as we would like, or as frequently as used to be the case). Why would anyone NOT want to see more frequent updates to logic?

    Oh, and yes, it was very polite :)

    kind regards

  4. mk3

    mk3 Senior member

    From the end-user point of view, I agree. Obviously, Apple does not agree, though!

    Perhaps Apple's "logic" is a sort of in, they do not wish to release an update without it being a very impressive update? Or maybe they don't want to bother their beta testers too often.

    Just trying to get the ball rolling!
    Maybe we need someone with a properly unpleasant attitude to put in their 2cents. But you don't *really* want a flame war, now do you?
  5. Markdvc

    Markdvc Administrator Staff Member

    The idea with the moan zone isn't necessarily that we are encouraging people to moan, rather, if something is boiling over, it may serve as an escape valve. After many, many years experience on the LUG, we know that it can cause huge problems to allow threads which are otherwise full of good information, requests, ideas etc. to get out of hand and be smothered in moaning. That is particularly frustrating for those who made good contributions to a thread, as well as those who want to read those contributions without having to wade through a load of .... well, just select an appropriate adjective .....

    Definitely not. Forum Rules apply in the moan zone as well.

    kind regards

  6. charlie

    charlie Senior member

    I thought we went back & forth on this already some months ago on the email list... Yes?
    Everyone has their theories as to why Logic is treated like an afterthought to their product line.
    I am resolute though that they just don't need to care about a pro-app that only sells X copies when you have iPods & iPhones that leap off the shelves.
    The user base for these consumer products is bottomless.
    Audio Professionals & enthusiasts are well, a small, finite number of people.
    -And we buy only once (excluding paid upgrades, of course.) That makes us even less important to Apple. The only way Apple continues to make money from us is by selling us new hardware, every few years.

    Put all of these numbers against the iPhone and Logic barely makes any sound as it hits the proverbial money bucket.

    "...We don't need no stinkin' Logic upgrade!! We need to sell MORE iPhones!!!" --imagined quote shouted by the Apple Board o' Directors

    So, hmmmm... Would I be considered an unpleasant attitude here in the Moan Zone? Gee. Maybe this smiley face will take the sting out of my anti-Apple rhetoric! :)

  7. Markdvc

    Markdvc Administrator Staff Member

    Hi Charlie

    Some of us may even theorize that the fact that there hasn't been an update for too long does not in itself mean that Logic is being treated as an afterthought. I can't honestly remember who said these IMO true words of wisdom , I suspect it may have been F-erenc, but the absence of information means exactly that - there is simply *no* information there to try to draw conclusions from, even though nature (and Logic Users it would seem) abhors a vacuum, and tends to fill it with "something" ;)

    I am resolute in the belief that sales of iphones, iPods etc, do not have to have a bearing on Pro Apps. But I am not party to Apple's strategies with respect to where Pro Apps, consumer Apps, hardware, software etc. all enter into the scheme of things. Of course, due to the size of the user base alone, a new version of Mac OS is going to mean more to many more people than some change in Logic, that I think we all agree on. That however doesn't mean that Logic is not important to Apple. Remember, every single Mac sold offers Logic technology in the form of Garage Band. Apple needs Logic and the people who develop it in order to be able to develop GB. I often found it ironic reading comments about Logic being uninteresting for Apple, all they were interested in is garage band. Without wishing to wander off into realms of boundless speculation, I wonder if, without Garage Band, Logic could actually have survived on it's own?

    Oh, don't forget itunes - it has quite a lot to do with music and is I think pretty important to Apple as well :D

    How important we, or other groups are for Apple, only Apple can really know. But:

    - and we buy it. In fact, perhaps we are all the more interesting for Apple becase we tend to go for the big guns in apple's hardware line. Pro Apps may run on Mac minis, mac Books etc. but I have no doubt that Apple sees pro app users as users of imacs, Mac Pros and the Mac Book Pro. As a case in point, as a former LAWP user, if I had not switched from PC to Apple back in 2004, I would not have spent a great deal of money on a G5 in 2004, Mac Book Pro in 2006, iMac and Dual Quad Xeon in 2007. That was over 10,000 Euros in the space of 3 years. No way would I have spent anything like that on PC components in the same amount of time, even if I had decided to go with Cubendo, Samplitude or whatever (I own licences for all of them).

    Oh, and a whole string of ipods for family and friends.

    I don't have an iphone, though ;)


  8. zerobeat

    zerobeat Senior member

    I probably didn't say it first but I have been saying something like that for many years.

    I see it in all facets of life: Zero information breeds hope, fantasy, wishes, rumour, lies, bullshit, faith, speculation etc...

    The industry of "punditry" is mostly a scourge. For example I actually saw Larry King ask a guest a question about what he thought Barack Obama's speech might contain the very next day. What a waste of time. The speech would ultimately contain ALL that information, only one day later. It served absolutely no purpose to attempt to predict something where 0% accuracy versus 100% accuracy would have equal meaning: none at all.

    By the way, check out for the difference between lies and bullshit.
  9. Seriously, I wouldn't even give a damn about the lack of information if Logic was treated like a "Pro"(fessional) program. Which, at least IMHO, it isn't anymore. Yes, it still *is* a professional program, on my current setup it's running very stable and extremely efficient, fine so far.
    But on the other hand, there's still quite some outstanding bugs, some of them more or less brandnew (such as the messups the take folders can create, which I would even call a "mission critical" affair), some ages old.

    Then there's still the good old, usually unreasonable overload messages almost everybody sees from time to time (of course there's a reason for that message, but then this reason needs to be adressed).

    And finally there's an absolute lack of new features, let alone any "revolutionary" ones. Let's face it, Logic 8 has merely been an interface-lifting (and in quite some areas it's been for the worse IMO), not much technically "new" core features have been introduced. Maybe there's good reasons for that as well, such as nobody being able to squeeze anymore functions into what seems to be a really blown up code, which would better need some hefty cleaning, if not being rewritten from the scratch (at least that's sort of what my spies told me...), so it must be a rather frustrating situation for some people in Rellingen as well.
    And I could as well imagine the situation to be even more frustrating for what I think could be a team of young, enthusiastic Garageband programmers, which probably need to hold back great features because otherwise GB projects wouldn't be compatible with Logic anymore.
    But in the end, as much as I may understand potential issues and certain conflicts, this still doesn't help me much as a user. Understanding some things may help me gain a little additional patience, but that's about it.
    As far as Logic goes, us loyal users should be supplied with what should better be a substantial update, finally at least catching up with certain featuresets that you find in each and every other "name" sequencer, better even adding something which really makes people "wow", so the current treatment could be forgiven.

    As is, the direct competitors are taking over, regardless of what area of sequencing you look at. Even in areas where Logic once has been known as being the absolute best (namely anything to do with MIDI), others have a way more comprehensive featureset by now, especially Cubase, just to name MIDI plugin compatibility and the absolutely kickass articulation functionality straight in the piano roll, which should be an immense thing for those working with larger sample libraries. The latter is something in the veins of what I expected a Logic update to come with, but as is, they will at best score second.
    Same with anything audio. I won't repeat how much Logic lacks in that department, even regarding some of the most basic things, but others are by now coming up with Melodyne-alike editing (Cubase, Samplitude, Sonar) - I'd actually expect Apple/Logic to be the first to come up with things like that, not the last.
    Ok, admittedly, it has always been that, say, Steinberg had a little "technological advance". They introduced ASIO and VST and it took Logic quite a while to catch up. But in the end, it was even working better, so your additional patience was rewarded. It's not like that anymore. They're not catching up anymore at all. In fact, it's the opposite. Something everybody was really stunning about when Logic 8 was released was the price drop and the amount of (partially very good) content in form of plugins and patches. Now just have a look at what Steinberg did. They added both plugins (namely their new convolution reverb) and content, lowered the price, *and* they added some additional technical novelties.

    With Logic, all we've seen since 1.5 years is two mini updates, not even adressing some of the most crucial issues (such as the mentioned take folders).
    It's especially the lack of bugfixes and smaller updates which seems to annoy people the most (at least most people I know). I mean, let's suppose there'd be a kickass major update coming one day. Will it be bugfree? Certainly not (that'd be an absolute first and as unlikely as it gets). So, how should I feel confident that these bugs will actually be fixed? They're not releasing any bugfixes anymore (I think that's a valid statement now that the last update is close to celebrating its first birthday), why should I believe this would change all of a sudden, just because a new major version was released?
    Even a company such as Steinberg, having really gained some reputation for notoriously bad support, is doing a lot better than Apple/Logic these days.
    I mean, you can only do better than zero support, no?

  10. mk3

    mk3 Senior member

    I also don't understand the priorities there. The "content" is completely useless to me for two reasons:

    1. I own much better sample libraries already (yes, and I bought them).
    2. I don't want to use those included libraries to which every GarbageBand and Logic owner will also have access. The sounds have already become over-used.

    If I want to buy a sample library, I would buy a sample library. What I want with Logic is simply the best DAW in existence, bar none. Not a mediocre content library that takes all day to install!

    As for the price drop and removal of copy protection, I can only think that these are methods to increase Mac hardware sales, even at the expense of essentially turning a blind eye to piracy.

    Which opens a larger issue: Has Apple been a friend to music? Sometimes I wonder. Even the iPod may have done more to destroy the economic viability of being a musician. All the "promotion" in the world does no good if a musician can't pay rent. Then again, I've actually heard people rationalize piracy as - "Musicians don't work anyway. How long does it take to make a song anyway? A few hours?" There you go: "Money for nothing, chicks for free."

    Maybe I'm old-school, but in my experience, making music requires sacrificing your social life, leisure, luxury, sleep, and potentially health (if you're not careful). Add to that the prospects of uncertain income, no safety net, no health insurance...If you actually want to become proficient at an instrument (including the "recording studio" as an instrument), you'll sacrifice most of your youth as well. It's what used to be called "shedding" back in the jazz days.

    Now that I've gone off the proverbial rails (or what my Latin teacher called "the primrose path"), back to making music. I still love the music, still get as giddy as a child when hearing great music, and that's what makes all the hassles endurable.

  11. Well, I don't exactly agree with you on the quality of the sample library coming with Logic. Sure, things such as the "serious" instruments, strings, basses, pianos and the likes can be found elsewhere, in much better quality.
    But there's a few true gems among the library as well, namely anything synth based (as the old "XXL Digital" and "XXL Analog" libraries are included), but I also find some of the ethnic instruments to work quite well, the latter probably being something most people wouldn't buy a dedicated library for, simply because you wouldn't use them enough.
    One may now argue that in times of very powerful softsynths, you wouldn't have to sample them, but having all these as EXS patches is really allowing you to do almost fullblown productions on machines that aren't Mac Pros.
    In addition, I also find some of the delivered synth patches and channel strip settings to be quite great. The delivered Apple Loops are indeed not all too great.

    And of course I do understand the reason behind deliviering all this content: You can attract new users more easily. Buy any Mac and Logic and you're set. And in case you're not buying a Mac Pro or MB Pro, this is indeed a truly attractive (and very powerful) package, easily rivalling anything that semi-professional studios could deliver just one decade ago.
    And well, all my sour grapes regarding Apple aside, I am still constantly wondering about how much I can squeeze out of this little Macbook. I'd bet that in terms of CPU efficiency, it'd be absolutely impossible to come up with an even remotely comparable Windows laptop configuration (ok, let's see what the quadcore CPUs, VST3 plugins and 64bit systems may bring to the table, but we're not there yet).

    I couldn't imagine anything else, either.
    But well, from a business point of view, I even think it's a rather clever approach (or at least a very valid one).

    Hm, not exactly sure, but I think a lot of Apple's image still relies on them offering the "creative computer" or so. To maintain that image I'd think it'd be quite important that they have some VIP users, even if the actual money those folks spend for Macs might be of relatively low impact, compared to whatever mass market revenues. And that's exactly why they should treat their "Pro" line seriously.

    Amen to all that. Yeah, I had a pretty comfortable life during the last years, earning almost all my money by playing live (well, ok, just right now the situation is going quite downhill and I expect around half a year that will really be not too funny for me), but to get there, I went through quite some efforts, such as working during school holidays to afford my guitars and 4-track recorders, such as spending all money that came in after school in further equipment, while other people were spending their holidays in the sun and their money for beers and what not.

    - Sascha
  12. rzzz

    rzzz Member

    Having viewed the LUG for a number of years now I think that it works like this - the total number of complaints about Logic not being being upgraded has to reach a certain number - I'm sure what but its probably between 100,000 and 1,000,000 and then suddenly, ruthlessly, without warning, a 'brand new' spanking version of Logic is released that leaves some users gasping with desire and others severely underwhelmed. Apple just carries on happily doing what ever it likes and be damned with the complainers. And so, most of us, carry on using Logic with at least a modicum of contentment, or we switch to using Cubase or something worse. I notice a few rumors on the internet lately saying that Logic 9 is going to be released on 24/3/09, and its a 'Pro Tools Killer', let alone a ' Native Instruments terrifier'. Now where have I heard that before?

  13. Huh, so following these rumours, it should've been released since over a week already?

    Anyway, regarding any sort of rumour, similar things (at least regarding the "Pro Tools Killer" statement) have been spread around the web before Logic 8 was released, and none of it has become true. I'd almost take a bet that no Logic 8 setup has been replacing any PT workstation, more to the opposite. 2 studios I personally know have been switching back from Logic to PT during the last 2 years because they've been seriously underwhelmed with the development of Logic on the audio side of things. Sure, this has also got to do with the fact that they both concentrate more or less on the audio multitracking side of things, but well...
    And really, it's almost as if PT has gained back some of the "being standard" status they were sort of about to lose. I think, during the last years, they lost some of their market share to Nuendo, but certainly not much (if at all) to Logic.
    Don't get me wrong, for project studios, MIDI based working and what not, Logic is still an extremely good tool, but the shortcomings in all other areas start to become obvious.

    For the time being, I will continue using Logic, but having planned to get a new desktop machine in addition to the laptop, I will now just wait for a bit longer whether this might be a Mac or a Windows box (especially since some of my "financial plans" have sort of flopped just recently, not sure whether the global crisis is to blame...).

    - Sascha
  14. Jay Asher

    Jay Asher Senior member

    You'd lose that bet. I know several.

    That said, PT is still the standard for post houses and client based 24/7 client based studios and it should be. A PT HD rig that is properly set up to Digi recommendations is still the most stable and dependable, because there are far fewer variables than on native rigs.
  15. mk3

    mk3 Senior member

    I understand that you are having a go at us here, but I'll respond seriously regardless.

    I would surely hope that someone from the Apple team is keeping an eye on what is being said in the Logic community. As someone who has done development for Apple, I can say for one that I made sure to keep in touch with what users need, and what is said on lists and fora.

    Of course, it's still a good idea to send in one's comments/suggestions/bug reports directly to Apple (Logic's Help menu has the link). From the updates to 7 and 8, it does seem that Apple incorporates feature requests, but maybe this is just placebo effect (or the old "Producer Switch" button that actually isn't connected to anything, but gratifies one's ego with a false sense of power).

    As for the suggestion that those unhappy with Logic simply switch, this is not always a good option. I can only speak for myself, but there are several reasons not to switch at this point:

    1. Despite shortcomings, I still prefer Logic at this time to the competition.
    2. It's a learning curve to switch.
    3. It's an expense to switch.
    4. Legacy projects / compatibility.
    5. As an Apple product, it's not likely to suddenly become a Windoze-only product (as did Deneba Canvas, for example, after long ago starting as a Mac-only product).

    There is a difference between being critical (and still remaining loyal) and outright rejecting Logic. I would say the former is useful. That's what the wish list is for, after all.

    Maybe we should make life easier for Apple's market research and do what was done a while back on LogicProHelp: a wish list which allows users to rate the importance of various features and bug fixes.


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