PT Logic
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Logic TDM Goodbye Logic TDM It was good while it lasted!

Discussion in 'Logic TDM' started by montylmc, Jan 28, 2010.

  1. montylmc

    montylmc New Member

    Well Im finally taking the plunge and moving over to ProTools full time.I ve just spent the best part of three weeks pulling my hair out. Logic 9 with DAE just was not working for me-the speed of the operations was just beyond a joke! It was taking 10 seconds before the TDM plugins appeared when I clicked on the insert on the mixer page-I mean honestly! All I have to do now is just convert my EXS 24 library into Kontakt 4 and then Im ready to go-What will I miss? Frankly Fueckall!!! I ve been sick to death of.... where do I start? Im sure lots of you on here can familiarise with

    1-Waiting for AudioSuite Soundtoys Speed to lock to the host tempo-I d been waiting for this since 2003!

    2.Having to reboot logic after Serato Pitch N Time did its thing for a while in Audiosuite then created DAE errors(It never did in ProTools)

    3. Never having the VSL tool working correctly in the EXS24 editor(this vienna thing was a nightmare and cost me over £1500!)

    4. Having the ESB bridge causing all my au instruments to distort at a lower bit rate and sometimes having to reboot(which took about 8 minutes on my G4)

    5. Having plugins opening up with a blank screen ie Waves SSL TDM bundle-E Series channel-Waves kept blaming Apple and refused to fix it!

    6. Not being able to use my 02R96 control surface in Logic with DAE-The Yamaha use to freak when I inserted a TDM plugin-Yet it worked 100% in ProTools!

    7. Having the bloody think just quitting without any warning and not autosaving whilst I was editing in the arrange page

    8. The spinning ball of death!!!!

    9. The Error message-Your farm cards are maxxed out DAE error!!!Even when they weren't!

    I was there there through PC Windows 98SE Windows XP etc OSX 10.2 Jaguar 10.3 Panther 10.4 Tiger 10.5 Leopard 10.6 Snow Leopard and quite frankly I tolerated a lot...I bought every single upgrade in existence-I spent thousands over the years-Long before Apple began giving the blooody thing away for free with every new mac......I was promised fixes which never came....I still believe the best version of logic with DAE (for me anyway) was logic 7.2.1 with ProTools 7.2.3 DAE on OSX 10.4.8 on a PPC G4-But hey this system was rendered obsolete back in 2007-New software instrument manufacturers ie Refx and Arturia were not aiming their products to anyone using less than a mac intel-

    I could go on but I ve lost patience already

    Im actually gonna miss some of the logic features but ProTools will do just as good a job and probably ten times better-Im looking forward to Shiettloads more firepower with the RTAS facilty! and a much more solid and reliable platform. Im also very very very impressed with some of these air instruments which come as standard-I love the B3 organ-The Mini Grand-The Structure playback unit-The synths etc-Every missing synth in logic can quite easily be replaced in ProTools with an alternative instrument-Its just such a shame these two great bits of software could not be made to work together in harmony. Anyone wanna buy my copy of logic 9 upgrade? I shall not be needing this again-Also I have a white apple key for sale with EPIC TDM authorizations VSL tool authorization Logic 6 and 7 authorizations-In fact all of the Emagic and Apple authorizations upto logic 8-It will be on ebay as from tomorrow.

    Sorry for this rant-Im pisssed of to say the least-Of course I am But am Optimistic about the future with ProTools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  3. tigerman

    tigerman Senior member

    Hi mate, you feel exactly like me, i'm following this setup since it was born...and i own many tdm plug-in (ONLY) aswell.
    i don't want to lose anything but i'm really getting bored of all logic problems with this setup. Also they have dropped tdm support, so sooner or later we have to change our workflow.

    We have a chance to still use logic... USE BOTH TOGHETER!!! that is even better!!
    My objective is to stay sample accurate, and this is my starting point, no sample accuracy, no music.

    this are my tests for now:

    1 - sync pt master and logic slave is not an option, the sync behaves like a very slow sinusoid with a 100+ samples range, no way to fix in an easy way.

    2 - sync logic master and pt slave is much better (MTC MMC sync over internal IAC bus), the latency is fixed over the song, but unfortunately, it changes every time you press play. This variation range is more or less equal to your buffer size in logic. So basically if you can work at 64 samples the sync is quite good, i mean 70 samples variation are unnoticeable in a normal environment.

    BY THE WAY i want sample accuracy so.... i've done it :)
    i have used reaktor5 (installed inside bidule AU cause reaktor 5 FX AU sidechain is STILL broken) and a file audio.
    the file audio is a impulse shot (a square with a lot of pwm), i put it at every beat and loop till the end on both pt and logic, this is the sync signal.
    then the signal goes from logic to pt, then added to the pt one and then back to logic on the left there's the logic loopback signal, while on the right there's the pro-tool one.

    Then on every logic channel i put as first insert my bidule/reaktor and i give the sync signals as sidechain, reaktor checks the real latency and then it delays the audio to adjust that.
    So everytime i press play reaktor automatically compensate the bad logic start and fixes it.
    I've reached sample accuracy of +-1 sample, not perfect, but very near!!

    I go from logic to pt thru adats, so basically i need that logic plays before pro-tools, so delaying it i will sync it perfectly with pro-tools, i have achieved that setting up a -1 under logic timecode option, for some reason it anticipates logic of about 1500 samples, that is more than enough.

    I'm still experimenting, i want to check if this latency stays fixed when the project gets bigger, basically i want to be sure this is a good workflow..
    The Reaktor insert uses very low cpu, about 0,6% on my machine, so i can put it on every channel i have without much problems.
    I've saved it as channel strip so i can insert with 1 click on every new output and that's it!!

    BTW i'm loving this setup, i will use pro tools mainly as a mixer for my first project, i will keep all midi and most of effects plug-in inside logic instead, so i'll get the best of both, without losing anything (i'll get even more, like all rtas plug-ins only that i was not abel to use before).
    Working in this way i get even more sample accuracy compared to logic coreaudio+tdm, mainly because thanks to pro-tools now i have delay compensation also on tdm plugs.

    In addition now i have 2 daws, so when i start having memory problems (i can't use 64bit logic, i'm on 10.5.8) i insert other plugs inside pro-tools.
    In the meantime i learn pro-tools and i'm still able to work fast with logic.

    if you don't care much about sample accuracy and you should try working with both without the sample accuracy fix, set logic master with 64 or 128 samples buffer size, and pro-tools slave, it works fine really!!

    Else if you use pt only as a mixer you do not even have to get any sync, cause pro tools doesn't produce any audio itself, so there is nothing to sync (well, automations are the only ones, but it will be nothing different than using logic core audio+tdm, basically it's the same)

    i have also logic control + xt so i can see logic mixer even when i'm on pro tools windows, also it's another reason to have logic as master so i have the jog wheel and all transport..
    i use apple's spaces to switch programs view.
    i've also setted up a behringer bcf200 as babyhui, so i have also a little controller for pro-tools, basically i use it for the master volume (cause if i use logic control master fader, sounds produced by protools (if any) will not be controlled by that)

    I'll give this mixed setup this last chance.. if i cant' get it to work this way i'll abandon one of that, i don't know wich, learning pro-tools in the meantime will make me able to make a better decision for the future.

    Once my tests will be complete i'll post a complete guide and downloads to how to reach sample accuracy, if anyone is interested..

  4. tigerman

    tigerman Senior member

    me too, atari ST with cubase then Notator/logic over mac os 7,8,9 and 10.
    best configurations for logic tdm was Logic 5 over mac os 9, also pt 7.1cs10 and logic 8.0.2 on PPC 10.4.x was not bad at all.
    Logic 8/9 over macintels 10.5.x just sucks, that's the point.

    btw is not gold everything that shines, i've already had some cpu overload message (I WAS NEARLY IDLE) with a couple of RTAS in pro-tools HD.
    So i suppose that when you start using third party RTAS pro-tools sucks a lot aswell.
    Reaktor at first has some problem in its RTAS version, and i use Reaktor like i drink milk in the morning, so abandoning a host that runs reaktor in a decent way is not an option.

    I believe that the best solution for me is to use both, hope i will not encounter much issues...
  6. tigerman

    tigerman Senior member

    yep we all know this
    "they" was referred to digi(suck)design
    But i have to say also that apple hasn't solved much issues over the years.
    let'say that digidesign has dropped, but also apple has never taken much interest on it.

    i've dropped esb/dtdm more than 2 years ago btw.
    in fact situation is better than with esb
    but it's still no good, it was better in logic 8 over ppc.

    digidesign support is crap, i know this aswell, it's unbelievable, it's the technology company that has taken more money from me since i've born, and they have the worst support i've ever met.

    BUT protools is not so bad, for some things it rocks, as logic rocks for some others, so here's my decision, use both simultaneously, problem solved.
  7. Indeed...Hence telling myself to shut up!!

    I use both....not sure how long that will last, and if not it'll be logic that's just a ton more flexible and versatile for what I do...that's just me....looking to be lucky if I get 20% of what I gave digidesign back on an ebay sale if I go that way....Hohum...still it makes me a ton of money so I guess that's the way to reason it.
  8. tigerman

    tigerman Senior member

    The winner will be always logic i guess.
    i hope they update their automation system so we have higher resolution for all plug-ins, and not only for logic ones, this is the thing i miss more atm.
    Also make a better control surface support, we just need that the control surface reflects the logic mixer window (including the options and the "HIDE" arrange function), pro-tools ones is perfect in this aspect.

    if they fix this 2 points and some other little workflow issues there is really no reason to go to pro-tools, only reason will be for tdm plugs...
  9. Agreed :smashscreen:.....Perhaps we may even get an iPad logic controller.....One day :ooold:
  10. Most 3rd party tdm plugin manufacturers are cottoning on to this pretty quickly and releasing AU versions...there's very few TDM plugins I would miss these days if I went native....except the stupid amounts of cash I spent on TDM plugs!
  11. tigerman

    tigerman Senior member

    i really hope for focusrites and virus indigo as audiounit, but they are both under digidesign, so i do not have much chances to see au version of them.
    btw with the money i get selling pt i'll get virus ti hardware and i still have some money left to buy something else :p
  12. No chance! anything digi will stay digi :lsaber:..... I got an Indigo, never looked back, awesome sound for a new gen synth....and all those knobs!!:D

    Seems to me Digi have spent the last years focusing on competing with Logic for midi editing etc, while apple just got on with what they do....Giving people as many features as possible in a fun to use , easy package ( I may be asking for trouble here!! but that is their working philosophy) and now Digi are realising that this hasn't paid off, word is they're in trouble, and heading to save the day with an exclusive all in one computer+ software solution (Doubtless stupidly overpriced in a bid to appear professional and exclusive)...Do I sound biased here?!

    It seems to me that the reasons and benefits for running Logic and protools together have long since evaporated with all the new technology....It's been an interesting, and somewhat rocky ride since my Atari / Mac OS7 days....I think my Atari 1040ste with a 'complimentary' copy of cubase was pretty much the most stable system I ever owned!! (It's still in the attic...Hmmm :rolleyes:)

    One way or the other, with 64 bit logic, the likes of Vienna ensemble pro running alongside, Au's like Kontakt, RMX, Omni all coming along with 64 bit memory addressing, and some top converters, I see no reason to limit myself to split stereo files and all the bugs that DAE mode creates in Logic.
    Just me....

    If you got a hardware Virus and a Fucifier you could take over the planet!!! :deviltail:
  13. tigerman

    tigerman Senior member

    Funny machine the fucifier, well, 2k dollars is a bit high, i don't think i will go too far from that with some plug-ins or a custom made reaktor ensemble...
    Honestly next device i'm really looking for is Kyma
    amazing machine...
    I already love modular enviroinments, reaktor, nordmodular, bidule.... next one will be Kyma.
  14. Kyma looks amazing! Might give it a try.

    Agreed about Fucifier, a lot of dollars for something we all have a million ways to do already, in or out of the box...still it may have something. I've yet to hear a compressor plugin that sounds close to a good hardware unit.


Share This Page