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Logic 9 logic bug, ethernet network

Discussion in 'Logic 9' started by dunnery, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. dunnery

    dunnery New Member

    greetings users, I just want to give you the 'heads up' on a logic bug. Logic cannot update fade files over a network so if you are thinking about using a network to record to then please do not do it. ( recording over a network via 1gb ethernet is faster than fire wire) I just dropped a whole load of cash on a network and it doesn't work. I can play final cut files, iTunes, infact I can even play logic audio sessions no problem but if they have 'fades' on the audio regions then logic cannot see them and won't update them.

    If anyone has a workaround for this I would be elated. The people at logic are not interested in fixing it so once again i am looking for one of you guys to help me out.

    how to find the problem? open a file for your regular hard disk and make sure you have a fade somewhere in the song and then do a 'save as' and save it to the network drive. close the song and re open it from the network drive. it will give you a permissions error every time. The logic people gave me a run around for a while but I basically wore them down to the point that they had to admit that it was a bug and a logic fault. Of course they didn't say that, they just went quiet and didn't contact me any more. I just wanted confirmation that it was a bug so i didn't have to waste my time but of course they would never say that. SO..... don't buy a network and try to record with logic. IT DEFINITELY HAS A BUG unless someone has a work around. Sorry for the long message.
  3. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    Sorry if that is indeed the case for you. I don't work in this manner so haven't run across this.There are work-arounds - freezing tracks or bouncing in place could take care of this.
  4. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    Is there a reason to record over a network?

    I know it's faster than a FW drive, but if I were going to do any recording I would always recommend using an internal sata drive over any other solution (well, maybe an SSD drive on an internal bus or an sata 6 pci-e card setup).

    In 28 years of doing this you are the first Logic person I have heard recording this way... I suspect this is the reason Apple would not be interested in spending the resources to figure out a solution... wouldn't you agree?
  5. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Actually there is. For certain audio work, especially whith several persons or teams who do the editing it can be an advantage to record directly to a server. And in a smaller scale, if most of the consumer NAS stations wouldn't be unreliable crap, almost unusable, much more people would connect via Ethernet to their data storage. A network is not necessarily a large system. If I had the choice, I would prefer two meters of Ethernet cable instead of Firewire, USB, Thunderstormjetboltpipe, whatever.

    One problem may be that Ethernet is not built for data streams. It is designed for data packages. Without beeing a developer I can imagine that an application which expects a stream and makes it's own packages via a buffer according to it's own rules is not very happy with packages from a network protocol. It could be like pouring bucket after bucket into a running waterpump. The application may lose the overview, so to speak.

    Well, it was not a good idea to design a network in theory without knowing how it will behave in special situations like audio work with a particular DAW. I am afraid you don't have many choices now. If the fades are the only problem you may be able to live without them. You could leave the network as it is and go back to more usual connections for recording. Or you spend more time investigating if and how it could work, perhaps spending much more money for hi-tec equipment. None of these options are desirable for you, unfortunately.

    The easiest way is of course to use a good standard disk and send the data after recording to your central station. At least we know that this always works. This is my only argument ...

    Networking is a complicated area. But I agree, recording over a local network should be possible. You should send a problem description (and a network description) to Apple.

    Before you do this it would be a good idea to analyze your network once more. Is everything perfect? Make sure that you don't have two unsynchronized switches in a row for example, which can produce timing problems. But more generally, if your system is NAS (Network-attached storage) you likely run into problems anyway, especially with a cheap NAS station. A NAS station is not a disk from the view of the client. If you don't know what I am talking about you may read this Wikipedia article, scroll down to the chapter "NAS vs. SAN".

    You didn't tell us what kind of storage you use but if you have a standard RAID in your network this should definitely work. Software- and hardware-controlled RAIDs are seen as external disks.
  6. beadgc23

    beadgc23 New Member

    Network Recording

    Hi George

    The vast majority of educational institutions are networked - single sign on, network home directories, even netboot - because it's otherwise unrealistic to manage a large number of computers. Final Cut 7 (i can't comment about X because I don't know anyone who would risk teaching with it - grin) plays nicely in this environment but clearly, Logic Pro does not. The usual work-around is to have students record to local volumes and then copy them back to the network storage but this involves many more hours of student management, lost portable drives, lab assistant training etc etc. Actually, the real "usual workaround" is not to use Logic at all, and I suspect that IS something Apple would be interested in addressing...
    I can confirm dunnery's post and would add that it doesn't appear to me to be a NAS issue - whether the volume is on an Apple File Server, shared (Apple) network computer with admin logon priviledges or generic NAS, this issue occurs.
  7. beadgc23

    beadgc23 New Member

    I couldn't agree with you more!

    The best evidence comes from Apple themselves - if Final Cut is perfectly happy with multichannel audio and video over a gigabit ethernet network, why is Logic Pro (happy recording and playing multiple streams of audio over such a network) complaining about not being able to locate, read and write fade files? I spent 10 years supporting and QA-ing some excellent (and also some, frankly, less than excellent...) DAW systems and this smells like dodgy, non-standard coding to me - one of those workaround solutions that proves very hard to uncode a year or two down the road. Disk-based fade files are straight out of the early nineties when real-time DSP was a pipe dream.

    The other dead give-away is the delete all fade files command - obviously they were problematical once upon a time. I remember a similar command on a very expensive DAW that wrote it's automation files to disk and frequently misplaced them on playback...
  8. beadgc23

    beadgc23 New Member

    Freezing tracks... ***crickets*** it's far from elegant but I wonder. Thanks for the out-of the-box suggestion, Doug!
  9. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Video is another game with another technical history. Remember those were the guys running through the house with an armful of this phantastic 600 MB (Megabyte) shuttle disks. They were among the first to ask for networking. The sports-shoe-interface is still the fastest but they needed so many shoes ... ;)
  10. beadgc23

    beadgc23 New Member

    Ugh yes...in fact all removable, portable, droppable, mechanical, breakable disks are an offense against nature! I still cringe in fear whenever I read the words "Jaz" or "Zip" - can I get the years back I spent trying to recover data from them?
  11. JuanTahnahmahrah

    JuanTahnahmahrah Senior member

    Welcome to the forum, dunnery!

    I have used Logic much longer than Pro Tools, but what you are addressing is one of the main features of the PT10HD or PT10 with Complete Production Toolkit (CPT) option.

    In addition to "real time fades" (as opposed to rendered fades), the new "cache" feature can use 64 bit memory to load the entire timeline, allowing the use of network drives. Although PT10 is still 32 bit, on a 64 bit OS (either Win7 or OSX 6.8+), the cache permits your scenario to work.

    With 8GB installed, you can allocate 3GB to the timeline cache, with 10GB installed, you can allocate 5GB, etc.

    The problem is that PT10 is $600 and the CPT is another $2000. The PT10HD upgrades are $1000 to $2,500 depending on if you upgrade from PT9HD or PT7HD. The base product, Pro Tools 10, does not have the cache feature. Avid is transitioning to a 64 bit version of Pro Tools, and the now legacy HD cards are EOL. The new HDX cards are in the five figure category.

    I use local (secondary) drives with Logic. I can see the advantage of a network drive in a busy, multi-user environment, but my PT10HD systems use local drives, too.
  12. dunnery

    dunnery New Member

    Hi guys, and thank you for your participation. i tried freezing the fade files but it gives me the same error code. i tried various combinations, freezing first then 'save a copy as' or save a copy as first and then freezing etc etc etc
  13. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    So far I understand you cannot use region fades for some reason. The only workaround I can think of is quite simple: If region fades are necessary use them only temporarily then get rid of them. In other cases don't use region fades at all.

    If you have many crossfades for example to link many cutted regions, use either the mixdown function and disable the inserts or record the track via a bus to another track and hide the original one. For the second method you have to set the sends as on the original track.

    For normal fades (in a musical sense) use rather the volume automation. If you want to keep your faders in position for a following mixing process, insert Gain plugins at the last postion in all affected channels and automate the gain instead of the volume.
  14. dunnery

    dunnery New Member

    Thank you Peter, I will do that. It may take a little longer but its probably a sensible thing to do regardless of the fade tools working status. Thanks
  15. beadgc23

    beadgc23 New Member

    Well - I'm happy to say that we've discovered a work-around to the Logic 9 network error, based upon the Final Cut X solution (that refuses to see network drives at all!) This is reasonably widely published but as a quick recap, making a sparse disk image on the network volume and then mounting it to use as a Logic volume seems to solve all of these problems. It's not quite as snappy as a local volume but it'll take recording and fades as normal. Win!
  16. Middle Rhythm

    Middle Rhythm New Member

    Sorry to drag up an old post... beadgc23 please could you point me in the direction of more information for this fix using the sparse disk image?
    I can't find anything with Google.

  17. Atlas

    Atlas Senior member

    For the sake to clarify your process:
    Once you used the Freeze on the tracks containing your fades, did you issue a Delete all Fades Files afterward and once done, attempted to save your project WITHOUT playing it back before the save? (Logic recreates automatically the Fades Files at playback...)

    Alternately, did you try to Bounce in Place instead of the Freeze?

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