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Loudness problem

Discussion in 'Studio Techniques' started by degeens, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. degeens

    degeens New Member

    Hi all,

    I work with Logic 9 and i've got some strange problems:

    - When I reduce the gain of a specific frequency by EQ (Channel EQ) my volume/gain of that track increases, how is that possible? :brkwl:

    - When I look at the VU-meter of Massive (from Native Instruments) the sound clips while it's not even in the half of the VU-meter from the logic track

    Some help would be nice ;)
    Thanks in advance!
  3. georgelegeriii

    georgelegeriii Senior member

    Not sure why the first one is happening, but Massive is simple: turn down the master volume in Massive. It won't matter if you turn the fader down, the overall output is just set too high.
  4. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Replace the Channel EQ by the Linear Phase EQ and tell us if the problem goes away.
  5. bambony

    bambony Administrator Staff Member

    Does this happen on any instance of use particularly on a single mic mono track? In multimic setups this can be caused by phase anomalies...

  6. degeens

    degeens New Member

    Ok, thanks!

    Well it works better with the Linear Phase EQ, but is there any explanation for this?

    Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea of what you mean... It's because of my lack of technical knowledge and my english.
  7. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    Yes. Equalizers turn the phases of the frequency ranges where the filters sit. This also contributes to the special sound of particular devices. But the tones with shifted phases may cumulate and result in an increased volume although you reduced the gain in the EQ. The steeper a filter, the more phase shifting occures.

    For the Logic Channel EQ, I measured up to 60 degree phase shift for a -48 dB/Oct high-pass filter. This is common and not typical for only this EQ. Extremely steep filters aren't musical. They can be used as effects or as a questionable effort to handle soundproblems which should not exist.

    A phase linear Equalizer does not shift the phase, hence the name. The disadvantage is increased latency due to processing time. The EQ has first to analyze the sound and then to correct the phases in some way. You may not want such an EQ for live performance or recording, but you can use it in a mix because (with proper plugin-delay compensation) latency does not play a role here.

    Well, music is not like cutting wood. If you remove a frequency range, the whole piece sounds different because the relationship between frequencies has changed. This means, you cannot remove something and expect that it just goes away without doing something else.

    You said that you inserted the EQ in the sum, so you should not have any volume lifting with the phase linear version. The situation would be different if you had the EQ in a single track or a subgroup. Then the removal of a certain frequency can remove a previously reversed phase that suppressed other tones. If you take the "suppressor" away, the others may come to live and the overall volume increases.
  8. bambony

    bambony Administrator Staff Member

    When recording a whole kit you are using multiple microphones recording at the same time - there can be some very strange relationships between the mics. I doubt this is the problem but I ask just in case.


  9. GraceNoteX

    GraceNoteX New Member

    Quote from degeens: Well it works better with the Linear Phase EQ, but is there any explanation for this?

    There is one other possible expanation. When using a high pass filter set to eliminate sub-sonic frequencies (less than 20 Hz), you can actually see an increase in volume (often enough to cause clipping) even though you are reducing the volume of the low frequencies.

    Slow cycle bass and sub-sonic frequencies can actually act to supress higher frequencies, resulting in dramatic increases in upper frequencies when the sub-sonics are removed.


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