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Discussion in 'Logic Pro X' started by JamesBRey, Oct 27, 2015.

  1. JamesBRey

    JamesBRey New Member


    I have been using Logic since v1 on Atari and am what I consider to be a power user. I have used many versions through the years and have programmed many environments for the SYSEX control of synths. In fact, I sell them and you can see my work here:

    Since the introduction of Logic X, many things in the environment are broken, Environments that worked perfectly in v4-9 now do not work in Logic X as they should.

    Some examples of this are:

    1) Binary calculator used and working perfectly in v4-9 (for intelligent switching purposes) creates MIDI TIMEOUT in X. Must force quit and reboot. No known cure - all tested interfaces cause the same problem - in OSX 10.8, 10.9, and 10.10 and all versions of Logic X.

    2) SYSEX fader with range value of -63 to +63 does not function in X - no negative values are allowed. Works perfect in ALL previous version of Logic. Specific to certain parameters of Oberheim Matrix-1000 synth and others.

    3) Checksum calculation is broken for certain Roland modules with a certain number of bytes, ie JD-990 and P-330. This is broken since Logic v8 - whereas all previous versions 4-7 function perfectly with my programmer and these modules. Have calculated checksum error since v8 on and also validated this with other users who have posted the same complaint.

    This is just an example of some of the errors - there are more. If you would like to start a dialog to correct these issues please get in touch.
  3. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    James, this is a user forum, we have no direct connection to Apple. Even if an Apple developer may read your post (what we don't know), you should not expect any answer or discussion with Apple staff here in the forum.

    You can of course use the feedback function in Logic and send bug reports to Apple. If you can get other users to do the same for the same issues, chances to get them fixed are better.


    I myself stopped developing large Environment patches after Logic 7, for reasons you know very well. I still like the Environment, but beyond a certain level of complexity I use Max/MSP.
  4. JamesBRey

    JamesBRey New Member


    Thanks much for the information. I am aware this is not an official bug reporting site - but Apple's site only allows a small paragraph and I wanted to raise general awareness about these issues and hopefully spark some interest and a possible resolution ultimately.

    It is truly dismaying to see a program you have used successfully for 15 years start to fall apart at the seams like this - and with no recourse to fix it. Thankfully, I still run Logic 4.8 in my studio with no glitches but this really hurts my business trying to write programs for the plethora of Logic X users - which most are these days.

    I appreciate your time on the matter and thanks for the tip.

  5. Billious

    Billious Member

    James, I kinda feel your pain. Like Peter, I gave up on Logic's Environment and switched to Max. There was a particularly long wait between major versions (was it 8 to 9?) and when - after years of waiting - there was no significant update to the Environment it seemed pretty clear that Apple weren't interested in it; they seemed more interested in enabling us to throw some choons together quickly with loops. Or something.

    This probably doesn't help, but Max is vastly more suitable for complex MIDI processing. And if it's running when you open Logic, two virtual MIDI ports - "to (or from) Max 1 and Max 2" appear in the Environment's "physical input" object, allowing easy communication between the 2 apps. (Caveat: I've rarely used this intercommunication so I can't guarantee that it works well.)

    Sorry to say it, but after Apple's absolutely f***ing a***hole-ish behaviour with SoundDiver I wouldn't trust Apple's attitude to hardware synth editing any further than I could spit a dead rat.

    On the bright side, if you can sort this out my guess is that there's still a sizeable market for good librarians and editors for hardware synths. As long as you're not a multinational corporation wanting to make billions. If you ever go the Max route the forum's really helpful and has enough Logic refugees to make you feel at home. Good luck, mate!
  6. Peter Ostry

    Peter Ostry Administrator Staff Member

    It works very well and you can create your own virtual ports in Max, with the names you desire.
  7. JamesBRey

    JamesBRey New Member


    Thanks much for your comments and support on the issue. I'm seeing a trend here .....

    I guess I should look into Max, but I have so much time invested in learning and using the Logic environment for 15 years or so that I hate to just dump it at this point - and other than the bugs, I really like it. I'll have to take a look at Max though - I remember it from the OS9 days but never really dived into it with Logic working well back then.

    I know Apple took over Emagic, but I thought that the main Emagic programmers were hired by Apple for the future versions, so it seems to me there should still be some pride of authorship and they'd want to fix the glaring bugs that have been introduced into the program on their tenure.

    Thanks much.
  8. Billious

    Billious Member

    @Peter: Thanks - that's good to know.

    @James: I really like a lot of what Apple do, but some of their behaviour completely sucks IMHO. I know SoundDiver isn’t Logic, but what they did with it shows what they can be like. SD was unceremoniously dumped and complaining to Apple was like talking to a brick wall. I didn’t follow the situation too closely, but IIRC there were many user requests to revive it, or even allow users to develop it themselves. There may have been a petition, too.

    All to no avail. Apple have their vision of the future of music making and that vision seems to override any pride of authorship that I’m absolutely confident the Emagic guys had.

    I felt sorry for Michael Haydn. SD was his baby, and with Apple's support it could easily have become even more excellent than it already was. I hope they pay him extremely well in order to ease the pain!

    But where does that leave you? Waiting for Apple to fix the Environment could well be like Samuel Beckett’s “Waiting for Godot”, even with the amount of pressure applied by SD users. Or they might shock us all with an update with MIDI processing rivalling Max.

    I’m really glad to have switched to Max, but - of course - your situation could be quite different. The Environment certainly has advantages. It seems to be pretty much just about MIDI, so many MIDI things are easier. e.g. The transform object is VERY powerful; I imagine that making a Max equivalent would be quite difficult. Max doesn’t automatically do checksums, but you can do pretty much anything with numbers, including negatives, all arithmetic processes, formulas, etc.

    You probably already know Max is free for 30 days...? And there’s also PD (Pure Data) which is apparently similar to Max and free. Could be worth a play?

    I wish I had more cheery things to say, James, but I’m sure it’s obvious what I’d recommend.
  9. Billious

    Billious Member

    LOL! Straight after that reply I went to the Max forum and found a post beginning with "I’m a new Max user and as some of my first projects i’ve decided to make some midi editors for some of my hardware (A DSI Tetra and a Strymon Big Sky and Timeline). Everything works fine but i’m looking for some advice on what the best practices/most efficient way of doing things would be."
  10. JamesBRey

    JamesBRey New Member

    Just an update - I was contacted by an Apple (former Emagic) employee in I presume Hamburg who is going to work with me on this. Very good news and hopefully we can work out all these bugs that are plaguing Logic X environment. I'll let you know how it works out.

    Thanks for the input everyone.
  11. Billious

    Billious Member

    Wow! That's excellent, James. =:cool:

    Quite unusual for Apple (from what I've observed), but excellent. Hopefully, you'll get everything fixed.
  12. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Hi James BR,

    I'm an old time Logic user (from the Notator times) as well. If I see correctly you are fan of Sysex Synth Editors, that's why you report bugs related to the Sysex faders and calculations I guess. I'm the founder of so called "Hybrid Synth Editors" where you can draw Control Change control points automation in Logic and it is transformed into Sysex on the fly, and vice versa, as well as Patch Presets storage, Management etc. Here is one of my Roland Juno 106 Hybrid Editor I have commended in this forum.
    I may say that all Editors work fine in Logic X. As a long time Environment developer I do lots of researches including Object sizes, behavior, Cable resources etc. I found that in Logic X most of the objects are different (have been changed after L9) though they seem similar like in the former Logic versions. Meaning that I had to re-design some of my Environment tools.

    By the way it seems that Apple started to pay attention to the Environment. There are some fixes in 10.2 which is promising...

  13. JamesBRey

    JamesBRey New Member


    I appreciate your comments and would love to start a dialog with you about this if you are open to it.

    I am not sure about your comments though as you state "all editors work fine in Logic X" but then again that you had to "redesign some of your environment tools".

    This is exactly my problem - when I port perfectly working environments into Logic X, many things do not work correctly and I am at a loss as to how to fix them. Since I am not working at a code level but just with the objects they provide, it seems to me that the environment is broken and the onus is on Apple to fix these bugs, not me.

    If you could provide more insight or start a private dialogue with me - I would be very happy to explore this topic with you and bounce some things off you now and in the future.

  14. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    You have sent an Email to the AG support.
    Please do not try to contact AG company Email for such sort of support when it is not related to the AG products. There are several AG admins who are not familiar with your problem...
    It is a pleasure for me to help you here if I can. As I mentioned in my previous post, the Key is to research the Environment objects implemented in Logic X and re-design your Enviros to prevent the problems. It seems you have some other system issues as well...
    I can say that the Environment is rock solid yet and you can create all sort of advanced tools without using Max or what else.

    PS. I plan to organize a Logic Advanced Environment & MIDI FX Plugins coding Seminar one day. If you are interested please PM me to add you in the list.
  15. JamesBRey

    JamesBRey New Member


    Sorry for the errant email - I was looking for a private messaging system here in this forum but did not see one - I just wanted to make sure you saw my post.

    I am pretty sure my system is fine as I have tried fresh installs on separate external drives of Mavericks and Snow Lion - without adding any drivers or anything that could corrupt the installs and still have the problems using generic USB driver, etc.

    I appreciate your offer to help. Let's start with a simple concrete issue and see if you can shed some light on it for me. In Logic v4-9 I am using a regular SYSEX fader object to send SYSEX to the Oberheim Matrix-1000. In the range parameter for this fader I have a setting of -63 to +63 to handle the negative values the Matrix wants to see for positive or negative modulation (ie ENV VELOCITY). This all works as it should in v4-9 - but it X it is not possible to select this negative range and therefore the slider only functions for half of the values that the Matrix wants to see.

    Do you know a workaround for this? If so, I would love to hear it - I assume it is a bug introduced in Logic X but if I am wrong, please enlighten me.

    Would love to be a part of your Logic Advanced Environment & MIDI FX Plugins coding Seminar - please put my email on your list! Thanks.

    Best Regards,
  16. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Could you provide just that Sys Fader in Logic 9 project for example so we can test.
  17. JamesBRey

    JamesBRey New Member

    Yes I can, what is your preferred method of delivery? Perhaps email me directly?
  18. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    Create new empty Logic 9 song. Import that Fader into any Environment layer, delete the undo history and save it. Zip the project and deliver it here via "More Options" -> "Upload file".
  19. JamesBRey

    JamesBRey New Member

    Ok, see attached:

    Attached Files:

  20. Tangra

    Tangra Senior member

    I had a look at this Sys Fader in L9 and tried to analyze its actual values behavior. Its pan view (UI) shows range 63/-63 however it sends the following mapped values:
    1. Range 63 / 0 sends actual values 63-0;
    2. Range 0 / -63 sends Mapped values 127 / 64;
    Something like that... Bear in mind that I do not own this Synth so I'm testing on the fly. It seems that this Fader comes from a very old Logic version.

    I created a brand new Logic X project where I offer a small scheme which maps a regular Pan fader via Transformer Mapper which is cabled to a real Sys Fader. Set the Instrument Port to your external Synth and try.

    Attached Files:

  21. JamesBRey

    JamesBRey New Member


    Thanks for uploading this. I worked with it for awhile last night and it is a viable work-around. I needed to change some of the integers but you essentially figured a way to deliver the proper messages given the problem of the SYSEX slider in vX.

    Still not sure what happened between v9 and vX to mandate this, but at least I can work with it now. Still a lot of other "bugs" I'd like to work through.

    And there are a lot of handling problems in X environment also:

    1) The SYSEX sliders are jerky.

    2) The Screensets do not save accurately - the objects always jump to the top and bottom of the page no matter where you place your objects and how you lock your screenset.

    2) I cannot see where cables go when you click on objects as it was before in every version. In a complicated environment like a synth programmer there is no way to highlight an object and see what it is cabled to. If you need to add or remove cables from an object it is nearly impossible unless I missing something big. This was obvious and easy in v4-9.

    3) What happened to the extra cable port on the objects for when you want to add another cable? Is there a new preference or something that protects these objects from having cables added? I'm talking about transformers and such. In old versions, any time you added a cable a new cable port would appear on the object - what happened?


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