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Logic 9 Score edit Note Length newbie question

Discussion in 'Logic 9' started by nickdbs, Oct 23, 2009.

  1. nickdbs

    nickdbs New Member

    Hi All

    I'm happily migrating from Nuendo to Logic 9 but trying to get the hang of the different scoring options.

    I am having trouble easily and quickly adjusting DISPLAY note lengths.

    I would like to leave the actual note length values well alone (With their human touch :) ) But alter the value of the displayed note, on-score only.

    Obviously the score display quantise global setting does this in general to the whole staff, but how can I DISPLAY-QUANTISE say... a single 8th note to become a 4th note on-score. without changing its actual MIDI length?

    On Nuendo you could click a note value on the (Equivalent of) part menu and then alt-click on top of the note you wanted to change and force it to change to a new display-note length without changing its MIDI length.

    Can't find this function on Logic - or is there a better way!

    Thanks for help in anticipation.

  3. Blair Fisher

    Blair Fisher New Member

    All changes made in the score do not affect MIDI data - the score will play back exactly the same. There are score quantize options in the region parameter box which will quantize the whole region. There are also ways to quantize individual notes - select the note, choose the quantize tool (press esc to see tool menu) and you are done....
  4. David51

    David51 Senior member

    Score edit note length

    Do you mean to write score in your first sentence? I assumed the Piano roll [MIDI]would play "as is" no matter what was changed in the score, hence the layout tool's horizontal moving of notes would effect playback, which it doesn't. All non configured MIDI meanings do not apply if selected as prefs after the notes have been put in score-NO? Please correct me if I'm wrong, if I am wrong, and the score is played back with no regard for the Piano Roll I would marry this score editor.
  5. Blair Fisher

    Blair Fisher New Member

    Get ready for a wedding celebration then. Changes in the score window DO NOT affect MIDI playback. The idea is that what we need to see as musicians is often different from what it actually sounds like, so the piece can be quantized one way (or not quantized) in the score and another way for playback (in the piano roll or event list)

    Hope this is clear

  6. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    This is confusing if taken out of context. What is true is changes in the display quantization will not affect MIDI playback - that's what was implied but not properly stated.

    If the above were true, I could delete a note in the score editor, and it would not affect MIDI playback.
  7. Blair Fisher

    Blair Fisher New Member

    Doug - the wedding is back on.

    You are totally correct - in my haste to help the OP out I didn't quite phrase it correctly. Of course you can add and delete notes in the Score editor, as you can with any other editor, and it will affect MIDI playback. But if you read the original post, what the OP wants to do is change the way the length of a note displays, without changing the underlying "human touch" - if he can do that we wants to marry the Logic score editor.

    The example he gives is having an 8th note display as a quarter note, which is absolutely possible, as I described. In fact, that can be done more than one way - the interpretation check box may work, or you can display quantize single notes or groups of notes, as you know.

    So....my wording should have been "Changes in the score window's QUANTIZATION do not affect MIDI playback" - and this is exactly what he wants to do. Hopefully he understood what I meant.

  8. Doug Zangar

    Doug Zangar Senior member

    Hi Blair,

    I did edit my post a little as I read the thread again. I know you knew what you were talking about, I just thought it confusing for others who might read the thread.

    And you're right - David51 probably is due for a wedding per his concerns about Logic's score editor. Perhaps I'll see you there, you DID get an invitation, right? ;)
  9. Blair Fisher

    Blair Fisher New Member


    Since David appears to be in Amsterdam he has probably snoozed quite unaware that we were discussing his upcoming marriage. I hope that we both get invitations for our efforts!
  10. David51

    David51 Senior member

    I think your wording makes it clearer, but the wedding is off-the score editor is not what plays back IMHO. Isn't it the MIDI Matrix that contains the actual info as to what is heard? I am fairly certain of this, for proof look at the improvements to the score editor for the 9.0.2 update[OK it might have been the 9.0.1] a new tool was added called "layout tool". This qoute is from the Logic Pro 9 on line manual"The Layout tool (located in the Score Editor’s Tool menu) is used to graphically move events in the Score Editor, in order to optimize the display without altering the timing of MIDI events." i am beginning to think I am the only idiot to have practiced with a metronome and tuning machine constantly on. I quantize as I play, just like Logic, and consequently sound often like a MIDI sequencer going on and on with no phrasing or breath pauses-so the score and piano roll are reversed for me-the score looks quantized but hasn't been and adding rubato to a MIDI track is not one of the most outstanding features of any sequencer program, me SOL. I do get some pleasure knowing this system works for almost all of you,enjoy!
  11. Colin Shapiro

    Colin Shapiro Senior member

    Hi David, Just for the record, the Layout Tool goes back so many versions of Logic I can't even remember when it first appeared.

    The score view in Logic will generally be an approximation of what the MIDI data actually is. If it represented the actual unquantized timing of all notes, the score would be close to unreadable. Just try turning off Interpretation and No Overlap for example.....

    The Piano Roll will display the actual position and length of all notes and I generally go there for all fine adjustments.

    So, back to your original question:
    If Interpretation is not checked, try switching it on (in the Inspector for that region). This will often interpret shorter notes (eg 8ths) as longer notes (eg 4ths).
  12. David51

    David51 Senior member

    I have been up working in Logic since 5AM and find it slightly amusing that this subject can turn Logic Pros into the most weird debaters. You didn't read it all very carefully cause the wedding is off-I will never upgrade Logic again as long as the score cannot display exactly what's in the piano roll.Back to work, what value should I put in a arrange region Transformer to turn all the notes into 16th's? I tied 240 on the 4th beat position,and got all 8th notes.Yes,I RTFM's but it still isn't clear to me how Logic deals with one 4/4 bar equaling 3840 tics then an 8th is 232, is a16th 240 tics? Thanks for the show, very amusing even if it is 5AM there,sweet dreams!
  13. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    1/16th note = 240 ticks.
    1/8th note = 480 ticks.
    1/4 note = 960 ticks.

  14. David51

    David51 Senior member

  15. Colin Shapiro

    Colin Shapiro Senior member

    David, I think you'll find that this community is generally very helpful and polite, and that sarcasm is not that welcome.
    From the Logic 6 manual (2004):

    Layout Tool
    With the Layout tool, you can change the horizontal graphic position of a note in relation to its bar position.
    (page 624)​

    Perhaps you have read some info about another tool used in the score? It's important to name things correctly when posting in order to explain your problem well.

    Regarding the question:
    Do this:
    Drag a 16th note from your Part Box into the score. You'll see the note entered has a value of . . . 232
    Eli was correct in saying that a full 16th is 240 ticks, but Logic shortens them ever so slightly.

    Dragging in an 8th note you get: . . 1 232
    Dragging in a 4th note you get: . . 3 232 and so on

    See page 711 of the Logic 9 manual:
    Changing the Position and Length of Events
    The units shown in the Position and Length/Info columns represent bars, beats, divisions, and ticks. Counting begins at 1 for each unit (first bar, first beat, first division, first tick: 1 1 1 1), and continues until it is carried over to the next largest unit.

    Numerical input starts from the left (which means you can simply enter the bar number,
    and press Return, if you want to move an event to the beginning of a specific bar, when
    typing in a value). The units can be separated by either spaces, dots, or commas, allowing
    you to type or 3, 2, 2, 2 or 3space2space2space2.​

    You must be aware of one more thing:
    The above values only apply in 4/4 time when your sub-division is 16ths.
    For compound time signatures and where the user has set different sub-division values, these numbers and values will change accordingly.

    Hope this is of some assistance - I'm genuinely trying to help out here.....
  16. David51

    David51 Senior member

    Thanks Colin for the reply, I am sorry if my sarcasm seemed aimed at you-it was for Apple, but even that does not warrant it. Your explanation is great and VERY much appreciated. My pain medication is now so strong that I didn't even consider your excellent solution of dragging notes of different lengths to see what the help tag was showing, Thanks for that too. The explanation on page 711 is too simple for my slow brain, if you would and want to,answer this: how do I know exactly where in the 4/4 bar am I dragging a note too? i see that it's explained in your reply, but for me it remains a mystery-only bars, beats are seen by me, divisions and tics seems like I should understand it but the fog is too dense for my lowly perception. What would the 'position' numbers be for the second of 4 16th's being placed on beat 4-of any bar, in 4/4, the 4 16th's are on the last beat, but begin without a first 16th-in other words, how would one know that the first of three 16th upbeats is at the right place for mouse input? as there is no visible grid-or am I missing something very important again?
  17. Colin Shapiro

    Colin Shapiro Senior member

    No problem, David.....
    When you drag a note in from the Part Box, a yellow ToolTip appears with all the info.(Top line shows the pitch of the note plus the velocity. The lower line shows bar number placement and note length)

    Try dragging in a 4th note and you'll see that when you slide across the bar you're dragging to, only 4th note positions are shown eg:
    (In bar no 4): 4 1 1 1 or 4 2 1 1 or 4 3 1 1 etc

    When you drag an 8th note in, you'll see more options:
    4 1 1 1 then 4 1 3 1 then 4 2 1 1 then 4 2 3 1 etc

    The same applies for 16ths.
    The first one will appear on 4 1 1 1 then 4 1 2 1 (the 2nd 16th - if your divisions are set to 16ths) then 4 1 3 1 then 4 1 4 1 and then on to the next beat: 4 2 1 1 and 4 2 2 1 then 4 2 3 1 etc etc

    You can obviously change the placement of any note afterwards in the Event List (eg for a syncopated 4th note to placed on 4 1 3 1 etc).

    All I can say is this: It seems very strange at first, but you get so used to it that it becomes instinctive.

    Hope this helps......
  18. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    Hi David,

    Colin has done a great job in spelling out how all the note subdivisions work in the MIDI editors. Regarding how to set notes to a fixed length in the Transform Window - you're in luck. It couldn't be easier; there's already a preset designed for just this!

    In the Transform Window, select the preset called "Fixed Note Length". In the lower "operations" row, make sure the length field is set to "fixed" and has a value of:

    _ _ 1 0.

    Hit select and operate and you're done!
  19. David51

    David51 Senior member

    Thanks very much Eli, I had studied the transformer and it looked powerful but dangerous, I can't convey the relief in reading your reply-just put x x 1 0 in as the desired 16th note, if only the manuals could be so concise. DO any of your videos cover simpleton stuff like this? I did watch one that was about distortion-great video,pity about the song-where have I heard that before? Why does x x 1 0 represent a 16th note?
  20. Eli

    Eli Senior member

    I do cover basic MIDI editing in my videos. I don't go into the Transformer in particular though. (Hmmmm - good idea though for some upcoming videos I'm working on) But the basic principle of how the numeric display of events works is the same throughout Logic.

    There are four fields:

    Bar Number ___ Beat ___ Division ___ Clock Tick ___

    So, in the example of setting the note length, you leave the first two blank, since you want your note length less than a bar long and less than a full beat (Quarter note) long.

    The third field you set to a value of 1 since you want it to be one division length long. In four four time you usually have the division value set to sixteenth notes. This is the normal default. You set this in your transport bar and it is global for all the windows.

    And you leave the last field, for ticks, blank since you want them to be an even sixteenth note in length.

    If you wanted to set them to eighth notes you would put your third field to a value of 2. Or, you could change your format/division value to eighth notes and set that third field to 1. It's just a matter of basic math.
  21. David51

    David51 Senior member

    Eli, I can't Thank you enough for taking the time to help. Your explanation is very easy to understand and I am getting the feeling that I am beginning to get a hold of this material, finally. Does it feel to you as if you are teaching a small child how to use logic?

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