Logic Pro 9 matrix editor/velocity issue

[fadbaguni]

After much investigation, I have not found a way of viewing vertical midi note velocity information directly below midi note events in the matrix editor (as there is in Cubase). They appear horizontally, which is superfluous, as note length already appears above in the matrix. Appearing vertically would make the job of spacing notes easy, as well as altering velocity. The hyper editor is totally unsatisfactory as it cannot be moved to fit directly below & match the position of events. Oh- and no, I do not wish to go back to Cubase !

 

[Ginger]

They appear horizontally

The beams inside the bars representing each note appear horizontally, but the info in HyperDraw (inside the Piano Roll) appears vertically. You can just ignore the 'tails' each if the dots have - but they can be useful to figure out which note a 'dot' belongs to (if there's both a long and a short note appearing at the same time position).

Here's what I do: I select the note(s) I want to edit, hold down Control and Command, and drag downwards or upwards. I can do this with or without the 'local' HyperEdit being open. By doing this, you'll se that the 'dots' move up/down vertically.

Appearing vertically would make the job of spacing notes easy

Please elaborate... what is 'spacing notes'?

The hyper editor is totall...

The local HyperDraw is IMHO a better option than the HyperEditor when working with the PianoRoll. But I edit velocity by what I hear, and not by what I see.

 

[fadbaguni]

'SPACING' ; a recorded phrase may sound uneven, and quantising may be inappropriate, so small adjustments to the time 'spaces' between notes (or note lengths, if you prefer) could be instantly made by dragging, but only if those notes are represented by a vertical, uniform width bar. This cannot be done in the local hyperdraw. It is almost impossible to visually identify the evenness of a phrase here.
Changes to velocity should of course only be made by ear.
Please clarify 'you'll se that the 'dots' move up/down horizontally.' Do you mean vertically ?
Is there a way of removing the horizontal tails in the local hyperdraw without affecting actual note length ?

 

[fadbaguni]

You said the info in hyperdraw inside the piano roll appears vertically. The velocity bars in my version (9.1.5) ,at the bottom of the piano roll (matrix) definitely appear horizontally. Have I misunderstood your statement ?

 

[Ginger]

'SPACING' ; a recorded phrase may sound uneven, and quantising may be inappropriate, so small adjustments to the time 'spaces' between notes (or note lengths, if you prefer) could be instantly made by dragging, but only if those notes are represented by a vertical, uniform width bar. This cannot be done in the local hyperdraw.

Sorry - I don't get why you don't just do this in the Piano roll itself?

Please clarify 'you'll se that the 'dots' move up/down horizontally.' Do you mean vertically ?

I sure did.

Is there a way of removing the horizontal tails in the local hyperdraw without affecting actual note length ?

Not that I know of - I don't think can affect the note length by changing these 'tails' even if you tried. But can't you just ignore that they're there?

IMHO, the best solution is to edit velocities (by ear) in the score editor. The score editor is perfect for showing multiple notes at the same time position

You said the info in hyperdraw inside the piano roll appears vertically.

Yes, the vertical distance from the bottom to each of the dots vary, depending on each note's velocity. See the attached image.

 

[georgelegeriii]

Why not use a combo of the piano roll and the event? That would do what you want, wouldn't it?

 

[Ginger]

Here are some of the ways you can control velocity with vertical movements (see the mini-QuickTime clip):
Edit them in the Event Float/Event List
Grab the dots in the "local" HyperDraw + move vertically
Enable HyperDraw for Velocity in Arrange (there's a key command for that), and grab the dots there - in arrange, that is - and move vertically
Hold Control+Command, and drag the events up/down in the Piano Roll: this will only edit velocity
User the dedicated HyperEdit window
Do it all in the Score Editor (also with Control + Command).

ETA: it seems that this forum doesn't allow uploading if QT-clips, but never mind. Added a screen shot of "vertical" velocity editing in Arrange instead.

 

[fadbaguni]

matrix editor

Thanks all, but forget the velocity function. All I need to do is see the note spacing/timing clearly, as in the hyper editor, but the hyper editor is in the wrong place, and should be where the local hyper editor is. i.e. below each note on the piano roll (See Cubase.) Distance between notes in the piano roll is unclear, (as the notes are not in a straight line left to right), unless you are looking at one repeated note, and all the same length !

 

[Ginger]

Hi again, I think you need to send a suggestion to Apple that the make some changes in a future version.

I've seen images of Cubase's Piano Roll, and as far as I can tell - it's not easier to see spacing between notes there - and I'm talking about spacing as in 'the space between the end of a note and the start of the next one'.

Since I've never seen anyone miss the solution you suggest before, you make me curious about what exactly you want to do - or what it is that's so important about not endings vs. the start of the next note. Are you dealing with spacing issues which cannot be identified be simply playing the region and listen carefully to what's happening?

You wrote this:

'SPACING' ; a recorded phrase may sound uneven, and quantising may be inappropriate, so small adjustments to the time 'spaces' between notes (or note lengths, if you prefer) could be instantly made by dragging, but only if those notes are represented by a vertical, uniform width bar.

You can quantize individual notes in Logic's editors
You can also quantize a region but tell Logic to ignore notes which are really close to each other (eg. flams).
You can quantize a region, but eg only 95%.
Or you can quantize it and add flams afterwards - without editing single events.
You can also set a 'gate time' for a region, meaning that all notes will be shortened or lengthened by a certain percentage.

I'm not saying that any of this will solve your problems, or that your suggestion isn't good - I just wonder why I haven't seen this suggestion come up before. I believe most people set the grid to a value which helps them see the distance between more clearly when needed, possibly use negative Q-range values, or simply check the spacing by using their ears. But then again, I don't know exactly what it is that you want to fix.

More about Logic's advanced quantize options here, from the pdf-manual:

• Q-Strength: This percentage value determines how far a note is shifted toward the nearest grid position. 100% results in full quantization; 0% leaves the note at its recorded position.

• Q-Range: Q-Range is a very musical quantization strategy that requires a certain amount of technical musical prowess. It is ideal for recordings that already have the right groove, but are too hurried or laid-back in places. It allows you to retain the original feel, but positions the rhythmic center precisely in the groove. A value of 0 means that every note is quantized. If you enter negative Q-Range values, only notes that fall outside the set range are moved to ideal quantization grid positions, while notes closer to an ideal position remain unquantized. This moves the most poorly played notes (those outside the range) to perfect timing positions on the quantization grid, or at least towards these positions, depending on the Q-Strength setting.

• Q-Flam: Notes with the same time position (chords) are spread out by this parameter. Positive values produce an ascending (upward) arpeggio; negative values a descending (downward) arpeggio. The position of the first note (either the bottom or top note, assuming all notes start at the same position) in the arpeggio is unaltered.

• Q-Velocity: This parameter (expressed as a percentage) determines the amount that the velocity values of quantized notes are affected by the velocity values of a template MIDI region. At a value of 0%, the notes retain their original velocity. At 100%, they adopt the velocity values of the template. Negative values alter the velocity, making the deviation from the template even greater.

• Q-Length: This parameter (also expressed as a percentage value) determines how the lengths of quantized notes are affected by the equivalent note lengths (notes at the same position) of a template MIDI region. A value of 0% has no effect, while at 100%, the notes adopt the exact note lengths of the template region. Negative values alter note lengths further, resulting in a more significant deviation from the template.

ETA: some final (?) comments:
If the problem with seeing spaces in Piano Roll is that there's a big vertical distance between each note, your'e better off with Score editors Duration Bars; notes are shown much closer to each other there.

You can also try Transform. The Transform window already has a tweakable Quantize Note Length preset, but here's something you can try:

Alternative A
make a copy of your track, and convert all notes to the same pitch. One way of doing that is to select all the notes and alter the pitch value in the Event Editor while holding down Shift and Option. Now the Piano Roll will show you the spaces between all the notes the way you want. Make your edits on that track, and while that region is selected, select Make Groove Template in the Inspector.
Now: Quantize you original region to that newly created Groove Template, and set the Q-Length value to where you want it.

Alternative B
Make a copy and change the copy so all notes have same pitch. Select both regions in Arrange: this will make both of them visible in the Piano Roll. Use the same-pitch region as a reference when looking for distances between notes, but edit the original region only.

You can also do the whole thing in the Hyper Editor, but keep either the Event Editor or Event Float open to edit the note lengths, because you can't edit lengths in the Hyper Editor. When you edit the note length in the Event Editor/Float, they will be updated in real time in the Hyper Editor once you release the mouse.

Or you can do the whole thing in Hyper Draw, and use the Nudge Event Length Key Commands to tweak the note lengths, eg. while listening to you section in Cycle mode, one bar at a time:


•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by Nudge Value
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by Nudge Value
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by Tick
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by Tick
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by Division
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by Division
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by Beat
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by Beat
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by Bar
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by Bar
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by SMPTE Frame
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by SMPTE Frame
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by SMPTE Bit
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by SMPTE Bit
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by 1/2 SMPTE Frame
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by 1/2 SMPTE Frame
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by 5 SMPTE Frames
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by 5 SMPTE Frames
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by Sample
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by Sample
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by 1 ms
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by 1 ms
•Nudge Region/Event Length Right by 10 ms
•Nudge Region/Event Length Left by 10 ms

Finally: you can make a template with a Transform-preset which fixes all notes to, say, C4. These presets appears in the Piano Roll menu. When you are unsure about spacing, select that preset, have a look, and Undo before you perform your tweaks.

 

[fadbaguni]

Thanks for taking the time - however, I had no idea it would be so difficult to explain a problem that could be explained so easily in person. The note lengths or velocities are not relevant to this discussion. The thing I need to see clearly is the note on information. The attack of the note. I can of course hear if I played the phrase correctly/evenly. For example, a fast arhythmic piano phrase (that does not always follow the tempo of the backing track), e.g. during an improvised piano solo. At the bottom of the piano roll in Cubase, is a strip displaying parameters such as velocity, represented as vertical bars directly below each note. Used in conjunction with my (very experienced) ears, this instant visual aid speeds up editing jobs enormously; visualise a row of fence posts in a field - it is very easy to see if they have been evenly spaced. This is my living, so working fast is important. It's hard to believe I am alone in having an issue with this. I have sat colleagues in front of macs in various studios and they have understood the problem very quickly by being shown in this way, but they don't seem to tweak as much as me and are not that bothered !

 

[Ginger]

Hi!


I'm starting to understand... You first present this as an issue with lack of vertical velocity info:

I have not found a way of viewing vertical midi note velocity information directly below midi note events in the matrix editor (as there is in Cubase).

I respond that the "dot" representation of velocity in the 'local' hyperdraw inside Piano Roll actually *is* a vertical representation of velocity.

But 'spacing', defined as (my emphasis...

time 'spaces' between notes (or note lengths, if you prefer)

...is also a topic for you:
"Appearing vertically would make the job of spacing notes easy, as well as altering velocity" and "All I need to do is see the note spacing/timing clearly".

But:

The note lengths or velocities are not relevant to this discussion.

The thing I need to see clearly is the note on information.

Since these editors show already show the note-on positions accurately, I think you want a clear, graphical representation of the distance between the note-ons.

Again: you should use the Feedback menu in Logic to explain how you'd like it changed. I assume that the change you want takes a few minutes to implement: you only seem want a graphical line between the vertical velocity 'dot' and the bottom of that area, but got it a little wrong when you introduced the thing about "note lengths, if you prefer". Good luck with getting your suggestion implemented. Now, when I understand what you want, I like the idea.

ETA:

The note lengths or velocities are not relevant to this discussion.

Even if I can see that there's room for improvement here, maybe your best solution for now is to use the dedicated Hyper Editor only, and set "Pen Width" to 1? Then you'll get the vertical lines you want, but without the maybe confusing note length info.

 

[georgelegeriii]

Hey there, I for one, can be the thickest person on the Lug...

So why don't you make a little movie and post it somewhere for me (or us) to take a look at... maybe then we can get some kind of an idea if there is any way we can help.

Signed: dumber than a slug ;-)

 

[Ginger]

I think I know what he wants now: Look at this image:

Because the velocity is shown as vertical lines, and not dots, it's easier to see if they are evenly played.

One can achieve the same thing with Logic's HyperEdit window, but has he says, the Hyper Editor "cannot be moved to fit directly below & match the position of events".

The Piano Roll is better for editing notes which appear at the same time position, and the Hyper Editor doesn't let you edit Note Lengths without having an Event Editor or Event Float open.

What fadbaguni suggests (I believe), is a solution where one doesn't have to use several windows to in order have
- a good overview over both distance between note-ons
- the ability to edit these positions
- the ability to view and edit note lengths and velocity.

If the vertical dots in the 'local' HyperDraw window (inside the Piano Roll) would have vertical lines, instead of dots, he could quickly see if notes appeared out of time:

..."visualize a row of fence posts in a field - it is very easy to see if they have been evenly spaced".

I may of course be wrong, and if I am, I'm sure he'll let us know.

 

[fadbaguni]

Thank you Ginger - the image you posted makes the issue very clear. Your image uses the same type of local hyperdraw as Cubase, but this looks like another workstation. Obviously, your image is quantised to a grid, but you get the idea. Beautifully easy to edit both timing and velocity, with nudging or the sweep of a pencil. I will feed this back to the Logic team (do they really listen to the users ?). In 1986 while in Berlin, Gerhart Lengerling showed me his brand new CREATOR program for the Atari. This has now become LOGIC of course, but I don't have his phone number !

 

[georgelegeriii]

I see your issue: Logic only gives you the Dot for velocity and the line connected to the note length.

While I see the difference, I don't understand why the dot/line combo wouldn't be as good as the single "post" image. I can clearly see the note position and velocity in the hyperedit section of the Piano editor

 

[fadbaguni]

Hyperdraw

I'm afraid there is no comparison in clarity to a vertical bar. I have been trying for 5 years, and it is virtually impossible to see accurately the distances between note ons by looking at dots that are not in a straight line horizontally (unless the velocities are all identical) and are all different lengths. I'd be happy to conduct an experiment and put a substantial wager on it to prove the point ! Even in your simple example you cannot see it even with the grey subdivisions in the background. When your notes are played in a manner unrelated to those barlines it becomes even harder.

 

[Ginger]

While I see the difference, I don't understand why the dot/line combo wouldn't be as good as the single "post" image. I can clearly see the note position and velocity in the hyperedit section of the Piano editor

I also feel that I get the info I need from looking at the Piano Roll itself, because I'm partially focusing on the background grid when I look at the events.

I googled Piano Roll, and based o the images I found, it seems that almost all other DAWs have that vertical line instead of just a dot. This, by itself, doesn't make it a better solution, but if Logic would offer such lines for those who want it, it may be easier for people who are used to Performer, CUbase, Pro Tools, Reaper and StudioOne to see, at a glance, if a series of notes are evenly spread out, simply because they are used to focusing on the vertical lines and not the relationship between each note and the grid behind it.

Also: Even if I have used Logic since the first version, I don't think I takes any effort to get used to have the vertical lines there. By looking at screen shots from other DAWs' piano rolls, I feel that fadbaguni is right in that the process of identifying notes which aren't evenly spaced would be faster, not slower with such lines.

 

[fadbaguni]

Hyperdraw

Thanks Ginger for confirming that I have not gone mad (at least as far as Logic is concerned....)

georgelegeriii wrote -

I can clearly see the note position and velocity in the hyperedit section of the Piano editor

Take a look at this solo I played & think again-

 

[Atlas]

Thanks Ginger for confirming that I have not gone mad (at least as far ...

You might consider to adjust the vertical zoom of the Piano Roll & Velocity windows, and I suggest to also change the background colors / contrast, in order to make it easier on the eye...