Logic Pro 8 Can score be same as PianoRoll?

[David51]

Can the score editor be forced/tricked into displaying just what is in the piano roll? the score removes things and changes pitches on its' own, here is an example http://skitch.com/john-davidmings/b1dgp/good.
The Apple stores here in Amsterdam sell Finale,but it exports xml that Logic can't handle. SmsrtScoreX is Finale's default scan program.

 

[grooveiron]

You need to change Logic's display settings. Quantize, Interpretation, Syncopation and No Overlap all have to be juggled to produce what you need.
I found I had to have many different sequences with different settings within a piece to get the results I needed - then I gave up using Logic for all but the simplest scores.
What is the purpose of having this notation in Logic for you?

 

[sonnykeyes]

David, the short answer is yes, the score editor can be forced to do what you want. That said, you'll need to spend some time with either the manual or the excellent Logic Score Guide written by Johannes Prischl - several versions old, but still completely valid, as the score functions have not changed in a long time.

http://prischl.net/LNG/LNGFramesets/LNG_Fr3.htm

I have been able to learn how to make Logic do what I want it to virtually all the time, just through trial and error (and the occasional question on this Forum) and can now use it for all my scoring requirements. (Caveat: I work in commercials, so my pieces are rarely longer than a minute)

In your posted example, you need to select a different Score Style for the Bassoon part, and use the Voice Separation Tool (looks like two arrows, one up on down) to divide the left and right hands of the piano part. There are Interpretation, Syncopation and Quantize settings that need adjustment too, as grooveiron described. HTH

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

 

[David51]

You need to change Logic's display settings. Quantize, Interpretation, Syncopation and No Overlap all have to be juggled to produce what you need.
I found I had to have many different sequences with different settings within a piece to get the results I needed - then I gave up using Logic for all but the simplest scores.
What is the purpose of having this notation in Logic for you?

Thanks groeveiron, I appreciate the help. I never have used interpretation or syncoption and do have no overlap turned on. When you say that you have many different sequences with different settings within a piece, do you mean cut the track up in smaller regions which shouldn't affect each other?I think doubling he note lengths and having twice as many bars would be the quickest way to get this into Logic. i will see what is in the manual,Thanks again.

 

[David51]

David, the short answer is yes, the score editor can be forced to do what you want. That said, you'll need to spend some time with either the manual or the excellent Logic Score Guide written by Johannes Prischl - several versions old, but still completely valid, as the score functions have not changed in a long time.

http://prischl.net/LNG/LNGFramesets/LNG_Fr3.htm

I have been able to learn how to make Logic do what I want it to virtually all the time, just through trial and error (and the occasional question on this Forum) and can now use it for all my scoring requirements. (Caveat: I work in commercials, so my pieces are rarely longer than a minute)

In your posted example, you need to select a different Score Style for the Bassoon part, and use the Voice Separation Tool (looks like two arrows, one up on down) to divide the left and right hands of the piano part. There are Interpretation, Syncopation and Quantize settings that need adjustment too, as grooveiron described. HTH

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

Thanks Sonny, for the help. I don't understand why a different score style would be needed for the Bassoon, but I will read the manual. I have ordered Prischl's LNG. i see the piano as one voice using two hands, would it really help to start making fake separate voices? I never use interpretation or syncopation and have no overlapping turned on. See my reply to grooveiron about the particulars of this one piece. Again,many thanks for the help.

 

[grooveiron]

You need to change Logic's display settings. Quantize, Interpretation, Syncopation and No Overlap all have to be juggled to produce what you need.
I found I had to have many different sequences with different settings within a piece to get the results I needed - then I gave up using Logic for all but the simplest scores.
What is the purpose of having this notation in Logic for you?

Thanks groeveiron, I appreciate the help. I never have used interpretation or syncoption and do have no overlap turned on. When you say that you have many different sequences with different settings within a piece, do you mean cut the track up in smaller regions which shouldn't affect each other?I think doubling he note lengths and having twice as many bars would be the quickest way to get this into Logic. i will see what is in the manual,Thanks again.

Yes - one piece cut up into many regions with different settings. The reason is that Logic's handling of notation makes it very difficult or impossible to have one set of settings to make everything look correct in your score. For example if there are a few measures with 1/32 notes, but these occur nowhere else, you will need to have quantization settings which allow 1/32 notes for that passage. In the other parts of the piece you may find this setting inappropriate. If you become familiar with Prischl's writing as Sonny suggested, you will find this easy to understand. It is very different from the way Finale works, but does have it's own "logic". Good luck!

 

[sonnykeyes]

Thanks Sonny, for the help. I don't understand why a different score style would be needed for the Bassoon, but I will read the manual. I have ordered Prischl's LNG. i see the piano as one voice using two hands, would it really help to start making fake separate voices? I never use interpretation or syncopation and have no overlapping turned on.

Hey David,

I just assumed you'd like to notate the rather high Bassoon part in the Tenor clef as it was in your example. Typically (and again as shown in your example) the upper piano staff shows the notes played by the right hand and the lower staff shows the notes played by the left hand. The Voice Separation Tool allows you to fix those notes that have escaped to the wrong staff because of the choice of split point. Interpretation, syncopation and overlap are all available as general preferences, but can be overridden manually on specific notes. In order to decide how to use these, it helps to know what the instrumentalist who will ultimately be reading the score is accustomed to in notation for their instrument. HTH

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

 

[David51]

You need to change Logic's display settings. Quantize, Interpretation, Syncopation and No Overlap all have to be juggled to produce what you need.
I found I had to have many different sequences with different settings within a piece to get the results I needed - then I gave up using Logic for all but the simplest scores.
What is the purpose of having this notation in Logic for you?

Thanks groeveiron, I appreciate the help. I never have used interpretation or syncoption and do have no overlap turned on. When you say that you have many different sequences with different settings within a piece, do you mean cut the track up in smaller regions which shouldn't affect each other?I think doubling he note lengths and having twice as many bars would be the quickest way to get this into Logic. i will see what is in the manual,Thanks again.

Yes - one piece cut up into many regions with different settings. The reason is that Logic's handling of notation makes it very difficult or impossible to have one set of settings to make everything look correct in your score. For example if there are a few measures with 1/32 notes, but these occur nowhere else, you will need to have quantization settings which allow 1/32 notes for that passage. In the other parts of the piece you may find this setting inappropriate. If you become familiar with Prischl's writing as Sonny suggested, you will find this easy to understand. It is very different from the way Finale works, but does have it's own "logic". Good luck!

Thanks again, you are a great help. You, or one the others asked me why I wanted this score in logic if the piano roll was working OK. I had to think about that, I only want to record the melody with the sequencer playing the Piano parts, so I don't have to get it into logic, I will continue working on it just because I would like to learn to use the score editor, I was working for many years sight reading music and I guess I forgot that Music doesn't always have to be in score version.

 

[Jay Asher]

Well, my answer would be that as a trained musician, I simply think faster in terms of notation than bar graphs.

 

[David51]

Thanks for the support, I think you hit the nail on the head-I can't quickly make heads or tails out of a MIDI matrix, but have played whole operas of Mozart sight reading the normal musical notation. I discovered that Cubase 5 now supports XML in the Intel version-that doesn't mean it works, but at least there is someone in the company who is not to busy brown-nosing and is watching how the music scene develops. When all the DJ's and their public are completely deaf, there might be a revival of real music, but it will require some pretty good programing to use rubato, Logic seems not to deal with it at all. Has anyone tried the Tap Tempo feature in Logic? If it records the 'Taps' in a tempo track that can be used to sync all accompanying tracks to the one Tap Track then there is hope, the explanation in the manual seems complete, but not on that one point.

 

[Jay Asher]

Thanks for the support, I think you hit the nail on the head-I can't quickly make heads or tails out of a MIDI matrix, but have played whole operas of Mozart sight reading the normal musical notation. I discovered that Cubase 5 now supports XML in the Intel version-that doesn't mean it works, but at least there is someone in the company who is not to busy brown-nosing and is watching how the music scene develops. When all the DJ's and their public are completely deaf, there might be a revival of real music, but it will require some pretty good programing to use rubato, Logic seems not to deal with it at all. Has anyone tried the Tap Tempo feature in Logic? If it records the 'Taps' in a tempo track that can be used to sync all accompanying tracks to the one Tap Track then there is hope, the explanation in the manual seems complete, but not on that one point.

David, tap tempo works fine but I can create accellerandos/ritardandos in the Tempo Operations quickly and then edit them to taste. And for rubato, Logic's Beat Mapping works well, once you get a feel for it.

As for the score, I have used i t since Notator on the Atari and while it is certainly idiosyncratic, it is quite capable.

 

[grooveiron]

Well, my answer would be that as a trained musician, I simply think faster in terms of notation than bar graphs.

Thanks for the support, I think you hit the nail on the head-I can't quickly make heads or tails out of a MIDI matrix, but have played whole operas of Mozart sight reading the normal musical notation. I discovered that Cubase 5 now supports XML in the Intel version-that doesn't mean it works, but at least there is someone in the company who is not to busy brown-nosing and is watching how the music scene develops. When all the DJ's and their public are completely deaf, there might be a revival of real music, but it will require some pretty good programing to use rubato, Logic seems not to deal with it at all. Has anyone tried the Tap Tempo feature in Logic? If it records the 'Taps' in a tempo track that can be used to sync all accompanying tracks to the one Tap Track then there is hope, the explanation in the manual seems complete, but not on that one point.

What I'm asking is why use Logic for notation when other software may be more suitable. David, what is your project? What are you doing? What do you need from your computer?

 

[jlproductions]

32 notes inside 16th note quant or 8t for that matter

Hi,
I also have used Logic for notation for professional scoring purposes for years and, although frustrating, I am too lazy to jump to another program for notation. Actually it is not just laziness and lack of brain power. Also working with video and with video changes, the ability to stay within one program is key. If I need to change the click track and guide tracks I've done in Logic, the notation changes too etc...
So I was amazed to discover last week something that has been in Logic all along and I only just now learned. It is enough to bang my head against the wall. Let's say you had a string part that was all 8ths but you wanted a 32 note run -- well yes I would make a region quantized to 32nd notes just for that passage.

However now I know that using the tuplet tool, it is a cinch to grab 8, or 17 or whatever number of notes and just mark them what you want. I only used the tuplet tool for triplets before but this is amazing. I have tried to attach a pix of a score I did last week. Notice the Violins 1 are quantized to 16,12 but indeed there are two 32nd note runs in there. Just tuplet them and choose 32/8 or whatever the math is and you are done. This is MUCH easier! Oh if only I knew this before....By the way if you later change the quantization to 8th notes, these 32nd notes will stay put no prob.

Hope this is helpful to someone...
Jamie

 

[jlproductions]

Actually I just looked at this gif, and I had to lower the resolution so much to upoad here, it is hard to read, but the score quant is indeed set to 8 if you look closely. j.