Logic Pro X Expected Latency when Live mixing and monitoring of band with up to 16 active channels

Ooniak

Logician
I set up a practice session / recording studio for my band averaging 20 channels / tracks using Logic Pro X as live mixer and recorder so our road equipment is separate. With latest equipment (Mac M1 mini, Presonus Quantums (3) / thunderbolt with output to PA and monitors and/ or Behringer Powerplay P16-I via ADAT to headphones) I expect latency to not be noticeable. I use no latency inducing plugins and Mac mini easily handles 32 samples with zero noise and Logic Pro estimates latency at an excellent mils. However, there is a noticeable distracting delay per the drummer and vocalist. Does the latency estimate apply to only one channel usage such that 16 channels will cause more latency? The Behringer P16-I reportedly adds 1 mils. What am I missing? - Frustrated.
 

Ooniak

Logician
I set up a practice session / recording studio for my band averaging 20 channels / tracks using Logic Pro X as live mixer and recorder so our road equipment is separate. With latest equipment (Mac M1 mini, Presonus Quantums (3) / thunderbolt with output to PA and monitors and/ or Behringer Powerplay P16-I via ADAT to headphones) I expect latency to not be noticeable. I use no latency inducing plugins and Mac mini easily handles 32 samples with zero noise and Logic Pro estimates latency at an excellent mils. However, there is a noticeable distracting delay per the drummer and vocalist. Does the latency estimate apply to only one channel usage such that 16 channels will cause more latency? The Behringer P16-I reportedly adds 1 mils. What am I missing? - Frustrated.
Thus far we are monitoring only during practice, not recording.
 
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Ooniak

Logician
Estimated Latency is 2 mils per Logic Pro X
Update: My live Logic Pro setup includes a compressor on every channel to get higher gain levels. I’m going remove all compressor ‘add ins’ and see how I can get better signals sent directly from the Quantums. Then I’ll listen for delay.
 
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Markdvc

Administrator
Staff member
What round-trip latency figure is reported in Logic->Preferences->Audio->Devices? Here on my Mac Pro using a Fireface UFX, at 32 samples @44,1 kHz the resulting roundtrip latency is showing as 4 ms.

kind regards

Mark
 
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fuzzfilth

Logician
One of the main components of latency is the type of connection. With Thunderbolt, you can get down to below 2ms.

I'm using an old 2012 MacBook Pro with TB on either a MOTU 8m + Focusrite Octopre Dynamic + MOTU 8Pre for 24 ins/16 outs in one band and ZOOM TAC8 + Behringer ADA8200 for 16 ins/16 outs in the other band, both with 6 full FoH + in-ear mixes + FX + Samples + recording, all under 2ms @64 samples buffer, so you should be able to get even less.

You build this from zero, so first get 20 channels + routing up and running without any FX. If latency and CPU-load is where it's expected, begin adding FX. Don't pile up Chromaverbs or Sculpture synths which will eat your CPU alive and don't use plugins with lookahead like Multipressor and AdLimiter as these will add substantial latency.
 
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Ooniak

Logician
Thanks for the replies. Do you or your band members notice latency on you rigs when Logic indicates latency less the 3-4 milliseconds? It would seem that I have had everything optimized from the start but band members and I can’t get over a slight but noticeable delay. I’m running at a 32 sample size with no noise, Quantum, thunderbolt, a Mac with M1 and Logic indicates 2 milliseconds turnaround, which I would think would be perfectly fine for any situation. I’ve listened to YouTube videos with various millisecond delay examples and rig sounds like at delay of 10 or more mils. Singers and drummers are miserable. I have no plugins except logic’s compression (no attack or release delay) and eq. I can’t believe any delay under 3-4 milliseconds would be noticeable or a hindrance to performing. Yet, I hear it. It seems there must be some additional delay that Logic is not including. other ideas? Same problem with the same set when sound through the PA or in ear devices. Next, I guess I’ll remove the eq and compression and see if the delay goes away.
 
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fuzzfilth

Logician
To find the actual, true, real world latency, carefully set up a microphone to a hard surface, route that through the rig into a reasonably quiet and close loudspeaker, then record a couple of hits with a drum stick on that surface. You will get a recording with two peaks for every hit, first being the actual hit, second peak being the reproduction of it through the loudspeaker. You can easily measure the distance between both peaks and calculate the time it stands for.

Also, are you familiar with the real world latency of playing on a medium or big live stage ? 6m distance will make your drummer 20ms late in your ear and you probably will not have a real problem to adapt to that.

As I said, don't start with a complex system and try to patch existing latency out, as it may well be a combination of two or three things causing this and troubleshooting will be unnecessarily complicated.

Set up 20 blank channels all going to he Stereo Out. Plugin Delay Compensation is off (else all audio signals will wait for the slowest one). Test it. There should be no discernible latency at 32 or even 64 buffer. If there is, find and remove the cause before adding more complexity. If there isn't, keep adding stuff until you hit that sweet spot between adding too many features and too much latency.
 
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Ooniak

Logician
Thanks again for replying. I’m a stage veteran of 30 yrs. so, concepts are not new. Deleting the compressors from the channel strips solved the actual delay issue. So, I’m good now.
 
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Ooniak

Logician
I have a lot to learn with Logic. The hover over plug-in feature works great. I had selected linear eq in error. It showed me the delayed was 56 mls out of the drummer’s monitor. Ouch!!! All done here and thanks!
 
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Markdvc

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks for the replies. Do you or your band members notice latency on you rigs when Logic indicates latency less the 3-4 milliseconds?
Not the answer you are looking for, but FWIW, I very rarely monitor live inputs completely through logic. On recording sessions I route directly back out from the recording hardware - either a Metric Halo or RME system. Live I may use logic to record a gig, but not for FOH sound. Good that you noticed you were using the finite response linear EQ - as you are now aware, this is one of a number of Plugins that do cause siginficant and noticeable latency.

kind regards

Mark
 
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fuzzfilth

Logician
FWIW, here's the setup of my band rig:

band_rig_routing.png

Red are the e-drum/ sample triggering channels, yellow are the instruments and their audio tracks for recording and programmable Sends to FX, green is programmable FX and their return Auxes, blue are bussing and routing Auxes to in-ears and summed or stemmed FoH, purple are the actual outputs.

The onstage GUI looks like this:

GUI.jpg


Red is the area where a song, its samples (if any) and its FX balance can be recalled, yellow is a programmable and triggerable set list so you can move around in your set, blue is a programmable FX Send matrix across all instrument channels, green is a representation of the SPD's programmable MIDI-Pads/foot switches used to trigger samples and special FX and the rest is a couple of status buttons and a delay calculator which never ceases to amaze guitarists.
 
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Hexclock

Logician
FWIW, here's the setup of my band rig:

View attachment 2307
Red are the e-drum/ sample triggering channels, yellow are the instruments and their audio tracks for recording and programmable Sends to FX, green is programmable FX and their return Auxes, blue are bussing and routing Auxes to in-ears and summed or stemmed FoH, purple are the actual outputs.

The onstage GUI looks like this:

View attachment 2309

Red is the area where a song, its samples (if any) and its FX balance can be recalled, yellow is a programmable and triggerable set list so you can move around in your set, blue is a programmable FX Send matrix across all instrument channels, green is a representation of the SPD's programmable MIDI-Pads/foot switches used to trigger samples and special FX and the rest is a couple of status buttons and a delay calculator which never ceases to amaze guitarists.
Stunning.
 
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