Logic Pro 9 How to use CC data to control pedalboard

[Pete Thomas]

I have to admit the manual has me stumped. This must be simple, but I am scratching my head over it.

I can get CC data to work the normal fuzz/wah plugin by just transforming CC to fader, but I can't get my head round how to simply use a modwheel or pedal to work the pedalboard wah ah.

Can somebody please enlighten me?

 

[Peter Ostry]

I assume you have a reason not to use Controller Assignments.

For direct control:
The Fader number depends on the position of the effect in the board.
Attach a monitor to the channelstrip, move the wah pedal and look what it sends out.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Thanks that shows me what it should be, it is Fader - cha 2 - 92

(cha 2 being the insert slot, move it down and it's cha3)

However Fader 92 does not activate the pedal.

This method works very well for the old style pre pedalboard Fuzz wah plugin on its own in an insert (Fader 2), but pedal board doesn't seem to react to the Fader data as with normal plugins

I have got it to work on my USB pedal using the control surface learn assignment (which I must admit I'm a newbie at using), but this seems very clunky as it is a preference so not easy to switch between different plugins for different projects.

But maybe if I can get my head round the bit in the manual about Pedalboard macro targets it will become clearer.

 

[Peter Ostry]

However Fader 92 does not activate the pedal.

Oh yes, I see. Doesn't work. I am not sure if the Pedalport can be controlled this way. A certain parameter needs a certain Fader event in advance, then it reacts to a certain other Fader event and moves the pedal of a certain Pedalboard position. I tried a while but could not find out if there is a system behind or if the Pedalboard just reacts accidently.

I have got it to work on my USB pedal using the control surface learn assignment (which I must admit I'm a newbie at using), but this seems very clunky as it is a preference so not easy to switch between different plugins for different projects.

If your Pedalboard is not always in the same position you would have to re-learn the Assignments for every project.

Or you maintain a couple of .cs files for different projects and assignments ...

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Possible solution:

Try to put one Aux strip just for the Pedalboard into your Logic template. Load the effect(s) you need and make the assignments with your controller(s). As long as you don't delete this Aux in a project, your assignments should work. Of course, the disadvantage is that you have to bus through this Aux whenever you need the Wah ...

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If you prefer to use the Environment, you can combine it with Controller Assignments: Send Controller events to Logic and transform them to other numbers by single fader objects. Send these to a virtual MIDI port (IAC for example). Then, by moving the little environment faders, you can use the Controller Assignment panel to learn from the virtual port. It's the usual technique to transfom internally generated MIDI to external MIDI (from the view of Logic).

But maybe if I can get my head round the bit in the manual about Pedalboard macro targets it will become clearer.

I don't understand this description in the manual. Not a word, I don't know what the heck they are talking about

 

[CSeye]

However Fader 92 does not activate the pedal.

I think I retraced your steps in this manner: Created a fader assigned to CC#1, transformed to F 2 92. No go.

Next up, I tried the Automation QA assigned to a CC#1 knob on my MPK mini. It worked. No surprise.

I noticed that the monitor read out was F 2 51.

A new project was created as above with a fader set to CC#1, but the transform settings were to F 2 51. It worked! Check out the Monitor read out from the CS.

 

[Peter Ostry]

Well, you used Controller Assignments for that, as we discussed above. But the fader part does not work here:

I assigned a knob CC 1 14 to the Wah pedal, Pedalboard position 1
Works of course and the readout of the Channelstrip is F 3 92
Created a fader for CC 14 and transformed to F 3 92

Nothing happens and the channelstrip readout is still only F 3 92. Where is the difference? Btw, the message of the little fader should not play a role because it gets transformed anyway.

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Mhm ... I like your channelstrip readout. It proves that there is some event combination involved. But I can't get it to work. I even tried to use your readout as input to no avail.

 

[CSeye]

Well, you used Controller Assignments for that, as we discussed above. But the fader part does not work here:

I assigned a knob CC 1 14 to the Wah pedal, Pedalboard position 1
Works of course and the readout of the Channelstrip is F 3 92
Created a fader for CC 14 and transformed to F 3 92

Nothing happens and the channelstrip readout is still only F 3 92. Where is the difference? Btw, the message of the little fader should not play a role because it gets transformed anyway.

I was able to get the expression pedal on a Roland MIDI guitar pedal (which sends out CC#11) to control the Wah when transformed to F 2 51.

The mod wheel on my SL MKll (which sends out CC#1) works.

An onscreen Environment fader set to Fader in the Inspector and Transformer also controlled the wah.

Is it expected that a mod wheel or pedal would control the wah pedal position without transforming?

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Mhm ... I like your channelstrip readout. It proves that there is some event combination involved. But I can't get it to work. I even tried to use your readout as input to no avail.

Thank you.

More attachments which probably won't shed light on much...

 

[Peter Ostry]

Is it expected that a mod wheel or pedal would control the wah pedal position without transforming?

Via Controller Assignments, yes. Any continuous controller can be used. Logic does the transformation internally after you mapped the incoming value to the parameter value in the Assignments panel. You said you used Quick Automation Access but this works like a "regular" assignment.

More attachments which probably won't shed light on much...

I think they do. You have the environment fader as an Arrange track. Maybe this is why it works. I just believe this is not what Pete wants, rather guess that he would prefer an independent fader in the Environment like it can be done for most plugins. For Controller Assignments this Environment fader is only necessary if you want further MIDI processing in the Environment, for other tasks.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But maybe if I can get my head round the bit in the manual about Pedalboard macro targets it will become clearer.

I don't understand this description in the manual. Not a word, I don't know what the heck they are talking about

I'm glad you don't get it either.

I messed about for ages, can easily assign the actual pedal movement by cmd+L, learn and click on the pedal, but I those macro target things had me stumped. I'm sure they are easy and very useful, but the manual is not helpful.

In fact the Logic Pro main manual says something like, "see the control surface manual for more information", but the control surface manual just says more or less the same thing.

You have the environment fader as an Arrange track. Maybe this is why it works. I just believe this is not what Pete wants, rather guess that he would prefer an independent fader in the Environment like it can be done for most plugins. For Controller Assignments this Environment fader is only necessary if you want further MIDI processing in the Environment, for other tasks.

Yes, this is what I want. That way I would seem to have much more versatility with how I use the pedal. e.g. in one project it's assigned to the "Normal" Fuzzwah plugin, another projkect it's assigned to the pedalboard, anoth project it's assigned to a EXS24 filter and son on

Each project would have a fader in the arrange as Peter points out, cabled and the output parametised to wherever it needs for that project.

If I assign it as a controller in the control surfaces preference, it's stuck there as a preference for every project. Obviously I can unassign it, but then there is nothing saved with the project.

It seems once it is assigned in control surfaces, Logic no longer gets any MIDI signal from Physical Input though to Sequencer Input in the environment.

 

[Tangra]

Hi guys,
I'm probably late for the party...

Here is the Main issue you are sticking your heads:
Regarding my long time Logic environment researches I found out that a few Logic plugins like ES2, Channel EQ etc (inc some 3rd party ones) use so called 14bit values which range is higher than 0-127.
Meaning that the Logic Environment Monitor object is DECEITFUL, showing Fader messages like this one F2 92 in our example.

How to find out the true Fader message # ?

It is easy. Record some track based automation for the Wah pedal and open the Automation Event list (via a key-command) - what do you see in the "Num" column ?
Fader # 2012 Right (see Fig.1 below)? This is what I'm talking about, so do not trust the Environment Monitors when have such issues !

How to override that ?

I guess Pete needs to use a given CC# in Logic for some other musical purpose (say CC1) and wants to use the same CC to control the Wah.
He can use the Controller Assignments but Logic will block CC1 in this scenario and he can not use it for musical or other purpose in Logic - right ?

I have developed a little trick about (using IAC) some time ago and I think I have shared it with you in this forum - here is one Link for example.

The idea is to split the incoming CC# after the Physical Input (see Fig.2) and send it to the IAC ->CA and to the Logic Sequencer.
1.If you create a virtual fader cabled to the IAC instrument and mouse tweak it during the "Learning" process, then you will learn the CA directly via IAC.
2. If you use the external controller during the Learning then CA will be learned from your Physical input device so you have to open the CA and change the Midi Input assignment to IAC bus otherwise the true CC# will be blocked. (see Fig.3)

Regads,

A.G

Fig.1

Fig.2

Fig.3

 

[Peter Ostry]

I found out that a few Logic plugins like ES2, Channel EQ etc (inc some 3rd party ones) use so called 14bit values which range is higher than 0-127.

It is possible to generate MSB/LSB messages in the Logic Environment. But I think without knowing the messaging system of a specific plugin we have no chance to find out how to control it.

The idea is to split the incoming CC# after the Physical Input (see Fig.2) and send it to the IAC ->CA and to the Logic Sequencer.

Ok, this is the usual method to transform internal to external MIDI. But if Pete uses Controller Assignments he does not need this splitting/routing because his Wah would move anyway.

 

[Tangra]

It is possible to generate MSB/LSB messages in the Logic Environment.

That's well known but it is not related to the (Fader messages >128) I'm talking about so there is no need to comment the MSB/LSB feature which purpose is out of our case... As you found out after my post even if you have the "messaging system of a specific plugin" you do not have technical "tools" to do that until the time when Apple decide to update the Environment.

he does not need this splitting/routing because his Wah would move anyway.

His original post is about trying to force the Environment using the deceitful F2 #92 right ? I could not see any correct reply about that before my last post where I explain the issue in details!
I think I could give the correct reason why he can not do that and offered an alternative method in case if he needs to use same CC# in CA and use that CC# musically in Logic like CC1, CC11 etc ( I do not see any other reason why he tries to escape the CA in his original post) ?

BTW. To my opinion these are the facts and there is no other methods or workarounds at this time...

 

[Peter Ostry]

It is possible to generate MSB/LSB messages in the Logic Environment.

That's well known but it is not related to the (Fader messages >128) I'm talking about ...

Maybe there is a relation. I saw that I can control the Wah pedal by sending two consecutive Fader messages. Couldn't that be a kind of MSB/LSB? I don't remember the numbers though but they were always two.

My problem was that I sent them more or less randomly by wildly moving the faders. And the combination of required messages changed when I changed the effects in pedalboard. I can't say if there is a system or not. I could control a single Wah and from 4 Wahs in a row I could control Wah #2 and Wah #3. This makes me think that there may be a chance to do that in a more methodic way.

... so there is no need to comment the MSB/LSB feature which purpose is out of our case...

<admin mode on>Tangra, we appreciate your input and your effort. But this is not a programmers battle, it is a discussion. For the sake of the forum, please don't tell people what to comment or not. And as you see in the reply there was a reason to talk about MSB/LSB.<admin mode off>
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( I do not see any other reason why he tries to escape the CA in his original post) ?

Well, Pete doesn't try to escape from Controller Assignments, he just would prefer an Environment solution. I got interested because I would need exactly this for a project. But we seem to have bad luck and you confirmed this.

Anybody here who wants to surprise us?

 

[Tangra]

I got interested because I would need exactly this for a project. But we seem to have bad luck and you confirmed this.

Now you are informed and know the issue - so go in action .

 

[Atlas]

Anyone ever found out what the Macro could be used for and how.
In the ES2, they are used to modulate many parameters with one knob, but in Pedalboard, this is a mystery. Speaking of ES2 Macros, how to customize these?