Logic Pro 8 Kontakt_Logic_Orchestra

#1
I am curious about something. This has stumped me for some time. This question is aimed at orchestra guys. Someone once told me that to get the best mix in Logic one should use multiple outs from Kontakt to Logic. I.e. each individual instrument should be routed out its own output (some mono and some stereo obviously depending on the sound)

Now the way I have it right now is in Kontakt 2 everything just goes out 1 and 2 (Defaults in Kontakt i guess)

Mixers tell me no, no, no you do not want that. You have to route everything to individual outputs for a big OPEN sound. Is this really true?

jh
 

Markdvc

Administrator
Staff member
#2
There are lots of benefits in routing individual Kontakt instruments to seperate channel strips in Logic - you can then apply seperately, and appropriate to your needs, whatever logic or 3rd party AU mixing effects to individual sounds, as well as being able to control panning, volume, routing, automation etc. from Logic's Mixer. So, while it may not necessarily be an absolute must, I would say, yes, it makes a lot of sense to route Kontakt instruments to multiple outs.

kind regards

Mark
 
#3
Mixers tell me no, no, no you do not want that. You have to route everything to individual outputs for a big OPEN sound. Is this really true?

jh
Those people were probably thinking of analog outputs. Inside the digital domain, it will have no influence on the 'openness' of your sound, just the practical differences Mark mentions above. :)
 
#4
Those people were probably thinking of analog outputs. Inside the digital domain, it will have no influence on the 'openness' of your sound, just the practical differences Mark mentions above. :)
Thats what I thought. So if I INDIVIDUALLY record each instrument to its own AUDIO track I get the same flexibility as if I had Kontakt setup to output on different channels.
 

Markdvc

Administrator
Staff member
#5
Thats what I thought. So if I INDIVIDUALLY record each instrument to its own AUDIO track I get the same flexibility as if I had Kontakt setup to output on different channels.
Well, yes and no. You could then manipulate these tracks as audio, but if you leave them as Midi and route them individually, you can benefit from Midi editing as well. Best of both worlds, I would have thought ..

If OTOH you are exporting your arrangement for use elsewhere where your Kontakt library is not available, then this would make a lot of sense.

kind regards

Mark
 
#6
Thats what I thought. So if I INDIVIDUALLY record each instrument to its own AUDIO track I get the same flexibility as if I had Kontakt setup to output on different channels.
Yes, though with a bit more fuss. Oh and here there IS a slight (at least theoretical) difference in sound quality.. if you record them to individual tracks before mixing it all, you get an extra float->int conversion. Probably won't hurt though.
 

mk3

Logician
#7
Yes, though with a bit more fuss. Oh and here there IS a slight (at least theoretical) difference in sound quality.. if you record them to individual tracks before mixing it all, you get an extra float->int conversion. Probably won't hurt though.
So keeping the tracks "virtual" (assuming one's computer CPU can handle it) would avoid the conversion, presumably?

Also, would freezing (as opposed to bouncing or simply recording the outputs of Kontakt) also avoid the conversion degradation?

Cheers,
mk3
 

mk3

Logician
#8
There is of course another method:

A separate instantiation of Kontakt for each instrument. This is the way I have always worked with virtual samplers. The only time I create a "multi" in Kontakt is when I wish to directly layer sounds "as is", without need for separate EQ or effects on the individual sounds. If the sounds represent separate instruments, then I would rather have each on a dedicated audio instrument track with a dedicated Kontakt instance. This approach also avoided the latency issues which Logic had (still has?) with effects on Auxes, as multi-instruments in Kontakt required Aux routings to process each instrument separately.

Apparently Kontakt does run more efficiently in multi mode, however. I believe this efficiency difference has been rectified in the most recent versions, if I recall.

mk3
 
#9
There is of course another method:

A separate instantiation of Kontakt for each instrument. This is the way I have always worked with virtual samplers. The only time I create a "multi" in Kontakt is when I wish to directly layer sounds "as is", without need for separate EQ or effects on the individual sounds. If the sounds represent separate instruments, then I would rather have each on a dedicated audio instrument track with a dedicated Kontakt instance. This approach also avoided the latency issues which Logic had (still has?) with effects on Auxes, as multi-instruments in Kontakt required Aux routings to process each instrument separately.

Apparently Kontakt does run more efficiently in multi mode, however. I believe this efficiency difference has been rectified in the most recent versions, if I recall.

mk3

I tend to work like this as well. Helps at the end when you want to make a backup, you can save track as audio file, and your partway done... multi outputs will sub,mix to Stereo if you try this.

George
 

mk3

Logician
#10
I tend to work like this as well. Helps at the end when you want to make a backup, you can save track as audio file, and your partway done... multi outputs will sub,mix to Stereo if you try this.

George
There is a further advantage with Logic in working with the 1-for-1 (1 Kontakt instance per instrument) approach:

You can save the Channel Strip into Logic's own library for later use in any project. For example, I keep favorite string section instruments this way (separate instrument for violin section, for viola section, cello section, etc).

mk3
 
#12
I use separate instantiations of Kontakt too, except when I want to layer instruments, and that's probably the easiest (though it might be less easy on the CPU, don't know if it makes a difference). :) But to answer your questions:

So keeping the tracks "virtual" (assuming one's computer CPU can handle it) would avoid the conversion, presumably?

Also, would freezing (as opposed to bouncing or simply recording the outputs of Kontakt) also avoid the conversion degradation?
Yes to both; freezing happens in the same floating point format as is used realtime.
 
#13
Also, in a Multi, all the instruments loaded in it are addressed by only 1 core on a multi-core machine. And of course there is the automation issue. So individual instruments, in most cases, makes more sense with Kontakt and East West Play.
 
#14
The separate instance approach for Kontakt sounds good, but isn't this going to use a massive amount of resources for a 34 instrument orchestra say, when compared to using maybe 3 or 4 instances of Kontakt (or 34 instances of EXS24)?

I guess the way to find out is to try it on my iMac, but I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.

Chris
 

mk3

Logician
#15
The separate instance approach for Kontakt sounds good, but isn't this going to use a massive amount of resources for a 34 instrument orchestra say, when compared to using maybe 3 or 4 instances of Kontakt (or 34 instances of EXS24)?

I guess the way to find out is to try it on my iMac, but I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.

Chris
I always worked this way, even on an older G5. Many projects had that many Kontakt tracks, and didn't exceed the processor. One can always freeze tracks if necessary along the way.

It's a lot of processing one way or the other, as it's the same amount of streaming samples either way. It always seemed strange to me that Kontakt should be more efficient working as a multi, but presumably it did some internal optimizing.

Certainly with newer Intel Macs, there should be little trouble handling that many tracks and much more. Experiment also with your Logic buffer and related settings, and you'll quickly determine how far you can push your system.

With my new Mac Pro (2008 8-core) I can now keep the audio buffer at 128 at all times, with no trouble, even in complex projects. For example, a project which would not even run on the G5 at 1024, now barely touches the meters on the Mac Pro at 128.

Cheers,
mk3
 
#17
if I understand this thread correctly.........why not use 1 instantiation of Kontakt for several instruments, say violins, violas and cellos. You can then route each instrument to separate outputs within Kontakt and have them correspond to separate channels in the Logic mixer. This way you can individually control each instrument with efx, levels, etc. It's pretty no-brainer to then save Kontakt "string" multi, "brass" multi, etc. I've tried separate instantiations of stereo Kontakts for better efficiency and have found no benefit to individual stereo Kontakts, as opposed to Kontakt Multis. My Logic performance meter looks virtually identical in both scenarios, but maybe it's simply my particular setup. FWIW, I strongly prefer to keep everything virtual, as opposed to transferring to audio before final mix. Could be my lack of musical expertise, but I'm capable of fixing performances right down to the wire. If I commit to audio, I have found that I will let something go that i'll regret not having fixed, later.
bruce
 
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