Logic Pro 9 Logic 9 a bit of gratitude

chugbry

Logician
Dear Apple Inc.
I for one would like take this opportunity to say thankyou for your continued support and forward thought of our wonderful software.
Thanks for Logic 9 and the effort the team has put into it!
I know that at times it must seem that us Logic users do nothing but gripe & winge and moan about every minute disturbing feature.
But I want it on record that I know how to say thanks for your efforts.

Keep up the good work all you Apple Logic developers.

Thanks Again

Chris Courage

Silver Pine Digital
New Zealand.

P.S. Hey everyone how 'bout let's give a big thanyou to the Logic team at Apple for a change eh?
 

LSchefman

Logician
Thanks Orren and Markdvc, the info is much appreciated.

I've ordered the upgrade, and have a boatload of plugs I depend on, so I did have some concern.

You never know if a new project will come in the very day you install the upgrade, only to discover something that you need for it isn't working.

Nice to have the confidence to move forward with the install.

Les
 
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OK, were do I start my rebuttal?

Jay, I stick to my statement that the new "Logic 8Plus" barely didn't change anything. Maybe I didn't explain it good enough. The GUI, the windows, the Preferences, the commands They almost look identical in L8 and L9. You have to look very closely to discover one or two new buttons or menu commands. Of course not everybody wants the GUI to be changed, but besides individual tastes, there is always room for improvements. And yes there are some new features that I highly appreciate but still I would rate them as a 8.1 update. Track Notes, Project Notes, white bar around window panes to emphasize the Key Focus, and a few others. I'm not a programmer but I don't think that stuff requires 2 year development time. All those development time seemed to go into audio features only

My big shock is to realize the priority given by the developers. I stand to my point that the MIDI side of Logic has seen virtually no progress at all. And Orren, the few new MIDI features you mention, I mean, seriously? I bought all your great Logic Power and Ignite books and I'm sure you are working on the L9 edition. Just ask yourself how much content and even screenshots you have to actually change. Isn't it more like an addendum, like adding a few more chapters for the new audio features and the rest of Logic is 95% the same?

I'm not trying to play against two camps of Logic users: the Logic user that use it like a ProTools recording rig or the Logic user that use it more as MIDI oriented composing tool, and I know mots of us do both. But you can't deny that this release is a big audio feature addition and not a MIDI workflow improvement.

How about multi lane controller in the Piano Roll Editor. My number one beef on the MIDI side. The whole aspect how to deal with KeySwitches with those big Orchestral Libraries. There is room for innovation where Logic can prove it's leadership. Instead of showing these priorities in the MIDI field, they completely ignoring to fix even the existing MIDI problems.:

  • 1) The whole MIDI reset issues is a complete mess that doesn't work properly.
  • 2) MIDI chase, another mess that they didn't even bother (same settings checkboxes)
  • 3) Lasso around multiple note events with "MIDI out" on will kill your speakers and/or ears when it blasts out everything at once
  • 4) The vertical piano still doesn't indicate what note you are playing.
  • 5) No single Key Command for directly setting a specific quantization value
  • 6) ... and on ... and on ...
(And yes, I send all that stuff to the Feedback page, which obviously reroutes it directly to the "Logic developer's trash bin")​

These are not bells and whistles or features that I can buy from third party vendors (like Guitar amp simulation), these are essential workflow roadblocks that bother me on a daily basis. If every body else tells me that those things are not important, ok then I shut up. But if the common sense is that they ARE important, then the reality is that we have to wait another 2 to 3 years to see if those things made it finally up on the priority list.

And talking about priority. This is all what it comes down to. There is a lot of time spend in Forums to discuss if Logic is/was dead. The real question for the discussion in my opinion is, what is the roadmap that Apple has and what is the priority inside the Logic development team.

Although L8 had its drawbacks when they removed features without offering new alternatives, the positive thing was that you could see that there was a vision and a thought process. Improved GUI, improved workflow, new ideas. I thought it was exciting and I really love L8. But there were a lot of areas that hadn't been improve in L8 which was not that a big deal. The message was, they had to re-write a lot of legacy code and couldn't deal with all the necessary things at once. That was ok, because that gave at least me hope, that the next version will lift Logic to the über-Sequencer it was supposed to be.
But now when I see that most of that stuff hasn't even been touched, that sets off a very scary alarm. Why? Two years were not enough time? It is not so much that I feel disappointed that one or the other of my favorite thing didn't show up in that release, it is more the question why it didn't show up. And like I said, it is not one or the other thing it is the complete omission of whole areas

  • 1) MIDI (see above)
  • 2) EXS24, maybe just a little face lift, especially the Editor. Or just cut at Andrea at Redmatica a nice check in integrate his cool things
  • 3) Environment - zero, could,'t they hire an intern for an afternoon to update at least the graphics of those objects. If anybody has more than one external MIDI devices hooked and and you try to figure out which Port 1 is which Port 1 is which Port one - or try to hit one of those little triangles on 30" monitor. It is a crap shoot and yes it is outrageous
  • 4) Local Menus. Am I the only one and am I crazy to think it is pathetic that you have to click a menu away before you can open the next menu. Helloooo did anyone of the developers read Apple's GUI guidelines about the Main Menu bar? Remember that is the company you are working for.
  • 5) Long file names. At least I get some positive feedback from other Logic users that are also upset about that issue. But Orren, please don't allow any excuses by saying, at least they implemented it for Freeze files. There should be no BUT at all, it is plain and simple outrageous that they didn't put that on top of their priority list. Logic wide long filename support, nothing more and nothing less. If any Logic user is so happy that he can now bounce in place, be careful and don't jump to high, because Logic restricts the length of your bounced filename too.


I think that post is long enough but I hope I explained my frustration a little bit better about
the new "Logic 8Plus"
 
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Fabulowsky

Logician
Dear Apple Inc.
, the new GUI is awesome !),
Fabien

Which GUI are you looking at?
Mine looks the same in L8, which is awsome. Not much changed there in L9
I was thinking about the L8 and L9 new GUI as opposed to L7 and prev. versions.
I am very glad about L9 new features even if it was only the Flextime engine.

As a software developer, I truly appreciate this feature that does not 'show' as much as a GUI improvement but is technically much more complex to achieve properly.

Then, I think about the new Guitar effects/cab simulators, Mainstage 2, and I am happy again ...

Peace,
Fabien
 
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Orren Merton

Logic Samurai / Administrator
Staff member
OK, were do I start my rebuttal?

I think you managed just fine. :thmbup:

Really, I think you should have started another thread. Not just to not get in the way of the love-fest, but because now its going to be harder to follow your line of discussion, because it will be interleaved with people addressing the original point, not your hijack.

I stand by my assertion that a lot of what you say is your perception of things-which is to say, you are certainly not wrong, but someone thrilled with what has been added will have an equally legitimate opinion. But that's not to say that everyone is going to look at things your way. And you know, that's okay. We all are allowed our different takes.

For example, in Logic 7 I was honestly not that interested when Global Tracks were added to Logic. It was clearly a big deal, but not one that really meant much to me. Or previously, when the Project Manager was added-I would have preferred audio features, etc. Again, lots of development time and effort, but I was never able to use it. So in those situations, I felt that my workflow got the short shrift. But that didn't take away the import to others and time it took to add those features.

This time as you noted the MIDI editors were the "also ran" when it came to features. Although let me say that as far as bug fixes go, it may be a different story. I just got off the phone with a friend who has had MIDI chase issues in Cycle mode since Logic 6, and so far he's said those seem to be gone. So while there might be few new features to speak of, what is there may work better than previously.

One thing that I've wanted to see for years has been MIDI plug-ins like Audio Plug-ins. Cubase has them, Sonar has them, DP has them, Live has them, etc. Logic doesn't. Logic could even let users build their own Environment macros, and make those MIDI plug-ins. When I started asking for that, it would have been innovative...but now "Max for Live 8" will do that. To me, that would be an exciting MIDI feature.

And Orren, the few new MIDI features you mention, I mean, seriously? I bought all your great Logic Power and Ignite books and I'm sure you are working on the L9 edition. Just ask yourself how much content and even screenshots you have to actually change. Isn't it more like an addendum, like adding a few more chapters for the new audio features and the rest of Logic is 95% the same?

Well thank you for the compliment! I'm guessing it will be more than that, since whenever things like new methods to add notes via context menus, etc. are added, that means that previous sections on creating notes need to be revised, and so on. But you're correct, the MIDI editors will not need drastic changes.

2) MIDI chase, another mess that they didn't even bother (same settings checkboxes)

See above. A good friend and collaborator says his chase issues are gone. Give it a try, maybe it will work for you now as well.

And yes, I send all that stuff to the Feedback page, which obviously reroutes it directly to the "Logic developer's trash bin"

Everything they get in the Feedback page they pay attention to. Moreover, at the start of a new release, they pay more attention than ever. So I highly recommend you re-send your list via that link NOW. Trust me, they are listening. It will not get routed to the trash. Now, what we don't know are their priorities, so "paying attention" is no guarantee of "seeing it soon." But I know they're paying attention.

But now when I see that most of that stuff hasn't even been touched, that sets off a very scary alarm. Why? Two years were not enough time?

Maybe it isn't. We just don't know. But I am sure you're right, that this time the priority was audio. That's not to say that it will always be, but it seems to be this time.

Orren
 
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Laserheart

Logician
It seems from the new features i've seen on Apple's site, that it is going to be worth the upgrade cost... most apps of this caliber costs several thousands of dollars, and the upgrades would therefore be well over the $500 cost of this entire suite!

Apple is doing an amazing job with this suite, and they deserve much needed applause for their efforts... in both keeping it updated and keeping the price down.
 
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Jay Asher

Logician
Edgar, you are entitled to want what you want and they are all legitimate requests that I would like too, but the fact of the matter is that by FAR, the most numerous and loudest complaints about LP8 were related to audio, not to MIDI, and that was the widespread perception of where Logic was falling behind, so the developers simply had to deal with those requests first IMHO.

As for the GUI, LP7 to LP8 was a total redesign so I certainly did not expect nor do I think it would have been wise, for them to do that again with LP9.

But I am glad the finally improved the key focus issue, although I am primarily still a screenset guy.
 
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Edgar, you are entitled to want what you want and they are all legitimate requests that I would like too, but the fact of the matter is that by FAR, the most numerous and loudest complaints about LP8 were related to audio, not to MIDI, and that was the widespread perception of where Logic was falling behind, so the developers simply had to deal with those requests first IMHO.

As for the GUI, LP7 to LP8 was a total redesign so I certainly did not expect nor do I think it would have been wise, for them to do that again with LP9.

But I am glad the finally improved the key focus issue, although I am primarily still a screenset guy.

Jay,

that is very interesting, I wasn't aware that being a composer using Logic mainly as a sequencer puts you in the minority. What happen to all those high profile film composer that use Logic. Maybe they have their guys running Logic and they have to deal with it. But I trust your statement because I respect you as one the authorities in the Logic universe (and yes, I also bought your Going Pro book. Also enjoyed it and learned quite a few new things)

I didn't expect a redesign of the GUI. I find the Logic GUI much more pleasing and ergonomically than the rest of the bunch. And about the statement that this time was the focus on audio and not MIDI, I don't know. L7 was about a new design and direction (not much new MIDI stuff), L8 was about the GUI streamline and audio (not much about MIDI) and L9 is almost audio only (nothing MIDI again).
That is what's bothering me, not the focus this time and the focus next time. It is the long term strategy. But like I said, MIDI became a second banana and maybe the multi lane CC will never see the day of light.

You mention the added white frame for the key focus. You know what, this is so far the one thing that made me excited, because it helps your workflow from the minute you open Logic regardless if you are doing MIDI or doing drums replacement until you are blue in the face.
These are the kind of improvements that profit every Logic user no matter what they are using it for. In the same category falls long file names and the non-standard local menu behavior.

And by the way, if the Logic development team focuses so much on audio and trying to catch up with ProTools, how come that the channel strip still doesn't have individual dB level scales and there are no real memory locator. My background is also sound engineering, graduated in Germany with a Diplom Tonmeister degree and I never could understand how you could take Logic serious as an audio production tool when it lacks in those areas (don't get me started on the Sample Editor). But maybe nowadays the kids only care for some flashing metering without even knowing what that whole dB thing is anyway. So it's more a focus towards seasonal Garageband user doing cool stuff by clicking around and not so much the professional ProTools cliental.

Just my personal observation.

(And Orren, sorry if it seems that I hijacked the post, but I think that overly optimistic statement needed a little bit perspective. Just in case one of the few minority MIDI sequencer Logic user get the wrong impression about the great "Logic 8Plus" update)
 
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Jay Asher

Logician
Edgar, respectfully, but one defines problems based on one's presumptions and yours are somewhat flawed.

While you and I are primarily composers "using Logic mainly as a sequencer" and while we may not be in the minority, we are far from the only ones who use Logic. Engineers do also.

Also, most composers, myself included, have had to learn to engineer due to vanishing budgets. And that means recording real players sometimes, dealing with timing issues, etc.

Further, whether you and I like it or not, there are a whole bunch of "composers", songwriters and DJ/Electronica people, Garageband upgraders, who mostly use loops, do not play virtual instruments, do not read music, etc. and the things that were added are more important to them than MIDI.

In one of my UCLA classes, one student (very talented, actually) said to me, "MIDI and notation are such old fashioned concepts. F***ing up audio is the way we younger guys want to create."

So yes, we may indeed be in the minority, and if not, we are certainly only part of the target market. So Logic must be viable to them also.

Read if you have the patience, and believe me it makes me want to scream, the following Gearslutz thread in its entirety.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/240371-logic-8-1-what-do-you-want.htm

See how many people were asking for PRECISELY the things that were added to LP9 and how relatively few were asking for what you are asking for. You may find it discouraging, but it is the reality the developers are dealing with.

That said, since they did so much audio in LP9, maybe we can now see some more MIDI enhancements.
 
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Ming

Logician
keep 'em coming

I get my upgrade hm monday, so I read both sides of it. My decision was taken to stay on the software although I have been looking. I could see that the main focus is on audio-features, as another upgrade could be focused on surround sound (which I don't use at all). To the skin issue for audio I have a possitive attitute if it is Mac-ish because I am. Or even Walt Disney. I went huh? huh? when I couldn't mark and move a kickdrum in the sample-editor first time I used it but now obviously I can. Cutting I never liked at all.
Arrange-window audio edit with elastic audio and forget the sample-editor would be just fine. Bounce in place also. User interface can make a huge difference I strongly believe, by inviting one to use it, since tons of functions with dysfunctional interface will prevent good results, creative momentum and all of that. Extended ways to use Mainstage with recording I will use. It will record anything over the audio-driver it says? Was a √ on my wishlist. (I sometimes recorded mainstage with the app Screenflow,) Best songs/takes could be done there with an inspiring interface. Arrange-window as one of the options "for those who like it" would be fine.
Will see next week
//
 
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In one of my UCLA classes, one student (very talented, actually) said to me, "MIDI and notation are such old fashioned concepts. F***ing up audio is the way we younger guys want to create."

Yes I hear you, I see the signs and it is frightening.

Can you check the gearsluts URL again, it says "no Page found"

Thanks
 
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Fabulowsky

Logician
Edgar, I sincerely feel sorry if you don't find fixes or improvements that you seeked for a long time and we probably all do complain about similar things from time to time.

But here, this thread was intended to congrat people that deserve it. Many of us just wanted to express our gratitude for the brilliant developers that made Logic (and much more before).

Also, I remember as a Guitarist, the times I was forced to learn better how to play keyboard to record more efficiently my midi music because audio was just not easy to record and/or sync in those days, and because midi guitars were as bad as hell.
I never regretted it because I like playing keyboards too, but now I get the cherry on the top of the cake, I feel better with logic than with pro tools even in pure audio sessions and still can enjoy superior midi implementation.

So I do think Apple made the good choices, just can't wait to receive my copy now and cross my fingers :)
Fabien
 
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Jay Asher

Logician
In one of my UCLA classes, one student (very talented, actually) said to me, "MIDI and notation are such old fashioned concepts. F***ing up audio is the way we younger guys want to create."

Yes I hear you, I see the signs and it is frightening.

Can you check the gearsluts URL again, it says "no Page found"

Thanks


http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/240371-logic-8-1-what-do-you-want.html

Once again, you WILL find some MIDI enhancement request, but over and over you will find Elastic Audio, Bounce and Replace, better audio editing, group editing, etc.

And thanks for taking this discussion with a good spirit as you are someone on the various Logic forums who has earned my respect over the last couple of years.
 
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zerobeat

Logician
I can guarantee you, that if I would install L9 on your machine you wouldn't even notice it. It barely didn't change anything, maybe a few more new bugs, we will see.

Either you haven't discovered some of the new EXCELLENT things, or you have and don't care about them. It's beyond obvious to me that L9 is a huge step from L8 and worth the money (easily.... I'd pay that just for Varispeed).


And don't get me started on the lack of long file name support...

Yep, that's a serious issue. It's made worse by the fact that Logic can GENERATE long file names (like when it adds suffixes) which is incompatible with itself. I don't know if Logic9 fixes this.


L8 was a real upgrade with actual improvement and I hoped they would have continued in all the areas they didn't have time in L8.

You see, some folks though L8 was the one that didn't offer a lot by comparison. Sure, the price got dropped and tons of content got added and the interface substantially changed, but actual feature additions were fewer than in past major upgrades (1.7, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 5.0, 6.0, 6.4, 7.0)

Obviously not everybody uses the program in the same way. The recent ProTools 8 upgrade pleased music people immensely, but post-audio people were mostly non-plussed.
 
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Markdvc

Administrator
Staff member
What's the experience so far with compatibility for third party plugs?

It's early days yet, but so far I have come across no problems with Waves, Sonalksis, Sonnox, Melodyne, PSP, NI, Omnisphere, Zebra, Korg LC, Camelaudio, Audioease, Fabfilter and Ohmforce.

Just to add to this, after having tried some more, Abbey Road, Antares, U-He, UAD and TC Powercore Plugins are running in L9 as well.

kind regards

Mark
 
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chugbry

Logician
Well, well, wel. see what I stirred up!
Guys, some of you really don't get the point of this thread I think. If all I wanted to do all day was complain about long file name support missing and many other things that we all "need" so desperately that we can't get working well I'd have started a different post.
Call it a love-fest if you wish but hey I guess Apple can call their upgrades whatever they jolly well wish!

I for one am just happy to see that Apple Inc still care enough not to trash Logic altogether and for that alone I am grateful.

You know what! it doesn't matter what softwares you are using because every one that I have used in my varied path forward have had their issues incl. the like of ProTools (which I use very fruequently as well by the way) Seems that just about 3 seconds after every release there is some bug fix they never thought of........ All those CS releases for ProTools aren't for nuthin'.

1). These developers aren't slackers I'm pretty sure of that.
2). Just because they didn't give you your current pet hate fix release doesn't mean they haven't considered it/ and or aren't still working on trying to integrate it.
3). If we weren't so pushy at times we may get some further "better" updates.
4). I'm quite sure the Logic developers are doing all in their power & means to include everything they can.

If you want to show Apple/Logic developers how to best do their job, hey go get a job interview at Apple and we'll all get that perfect Logic App we want.... (not).

All I'm saying is these guys have been at it a long time and they deserve due credit.
The years of frustration the old Emagic boys have seen must be mind boggling.
Coding isn't exactly the easiest sport around, especially taking into account all the other 3rd party plugins and developers (not to mention Apple OSX / leopard etc releases).

Take my word for it, sofware developers of this calibur run this stuff over & over to check it for bugs and errors.

It's not that I don't respect your opinions Edgar sir (others), I do. I really just think it's time for us to show gratitude.

Hey I'm not one of the Apple team by any mark so this is just my honest serious attempt at an unbiased and unconditional thankyou!

Best regards

Chris
Silver Pine Digital
New zealand
 
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Chris,

I respect your point of view and I'm happy that you really like the new Logic version.
Sorry if you feel that I hijacked your post but I mentioned earlier, that I don't consider that a hijack. L9 just came out and most users are evaluating if they should spend the money and buy it. Seeing a post that is all positive could deliver some wrong impression about the product. What I'm reading so far on various forums since Thursday lets me believe that I'm not alone with my evaluation. "Audio feature centric update with unforgivable omissions like long file names".

I have no problem with saying thank you to people that have done great things and I think it is very important and not done enough, living in a world were too much stuff is taking for granted. Having said that, I also believe strongly that you can appreciate something and voice your concern or criticism at the same time. Most of the time the world is not black and white, it is gray.

Let me put it in a few analogies to explain what I mean:

  1. If my son writes a great story for his homework assignment, I can tell him how great it is, how much I loved his imaginations, the characters, etc. But at the same time I can remind him that if he would have done his spelling practice first, he would have end up with less spelling errors and an even better result. That constructive criticism doesn't take anything away from his great story.
  2. The L9 upgrade looks to me like a house sale. The owner improved the house with a new driveway, an add on guest house and new flowers around the fence. Now all shiny, it goes back on the market. But when you show up at the open house you will see that the kitchen still has a wood burning stove, no Ethernet wiring and air conditioning is also missing. The basement (Logic's Environment) is not accessible because the owner couldn't find the key and hasn't been down there for years.
  3. Or what would you say to a new car model that came out with GPS, iPod integration and other gimmick but they still haven't implemented the windscreen wipers or the head light and you always have to have a flashlight handy if you want to drive in the dark. Driving in the rain, maybe with the next model.

What I'm trying to say all along is that this is not about my personal wish list that hasn't materialist. It's all about priorities. I thought the main consensus among Logic users for the next release was bug fixes, stability and workflow first before introducing new bells and whistles.
Back to the long file name issue, I consider this a high priority bug. Read on the forums how many users got their project corrupted or rendered useless due to this automatic audio filename truncation and renaming. And I don't even mention the additional time required to rename the audio files after bouncing. If you have 60 cues for your movie score and made 6 bounces each for variou stems then, you will end up having to rename 360 files in the FInder, and no you can't import them back to your Logic project because the names would be all messed up and impossible to sort out.


BTW, are you serious about that statement of yours:
"... If we weren't so pushy at times we may get some further "better" updates..."

We as the user base, that buys the product have to be as pushy as posible to make our voice heard. The only power we have is our credit card and and various forums that we hope will echo back somehow to the developer team. And if one of those echos is an occasional "thank you for your effort", I think there is nothing wrong with it.
 
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chugbry

Logician
Hi Edgar,
Firstly, let me state that I have no disrespect for you at all sir.... On the contarary, with your books and all I believe I give due respect.

So we are here to discuss Logic after all.

I also understand the need for "push" to help drive product incentive (and yes I probably didn't word that thought correcly). I guess I believe at any rate that changing features actually takes time and patience and by the time the development team read all the posts and listen to all the gripes then decide what to attack next it is time consuming.

Constructive criticism never bothered me either so I understand your feelings regarding.

Bug fixes are fine by me... I also dis-like some things as they stand, including short names.

Yes, as you state midi operstions should be improved but my guess is they take what they see to be more relevant issues and work with that first. I don't pretend to know how they approach to their work load.

Sometimes as it has been mentioned it seems to be.... keep pace with ProTools latest tricks!

I like the elastic audio thingy and that is really what ProTools has recenly done.

I also agree that Melodyne or Pitch n' Time etc. can do some of that for us and it seems that logic missed out on the good pitch/time correction even though we now have elastic time (though saying this, I haven't tested all the functionality of time stretching as I should before spouting off).

Hey, I'll even put in a word for you here and ask the Apple Logic dev team to please address long filenames in the next minor release.

I think that being worried over the $199 upgrade is a little bit off. I state my case that these guys may have had to buy some third party coding (not saying they did mind you) and after all these guy do have to be paid for their work somehow.


I would think that for minor releases that we should get them as free upgrades and I sometimes gripe that Logic goes like: logic 8.0, 8.1, 8.2 then they decide for a major release whereas ProTools by comparison has quite a few minor CS releases before a major.

One for you also.... I've personally have never really liked the Logic or ProTools Level meters by the way.

My personal thing is Long file names..... Midi..... and some decent quality mastering plugs.

See I have to keep qualifying statements like that because I'm not saying some of plugins aren't fine.


Let's make some music.. Logic Rocks whatever way you look at it!


Chris.
Silver Pine Digital
New Zealand
 
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