Logic Pro Logic and mixing with analog summing

[captainmarko]

Hello people!

I am trying to make a complete commitment to Logic and hopefully abandon PT altogether, unless working for clients for whom it is a requirement. So...I am just about ready to start mixing a batch of original songs and this will be the first time I haven't mixed in PT in 20 years.

So just a quick question, because i can't seem to find the particular answer anywhere.

My PT mix setup typically goes like this:

All tracks are routed out to an assigned stereo output, i.e. drums-3/4, bass-5/6, synths-7/8 etc, resulting in 22 channels of analog summing.

I've always had a master fader in PT for each stereo output, upon which I might place some additional magic. Does Logic allow you to create a separate master fader for each stereo output? I can't seem to find the answer anywhere and I'd like to know before I start this process whether or not I have to just suck it up and return to PT to mix.

 

[Markdvc]

All tracks are routed out to an assigned stereo output, i.e. drums-3/4, bass-5/6, synths-7/8 etc, resulting in 22 channels of analog summing.

Does this mean you are routing out of your computer into a mixing desk or some sort of merging/summing device in the analogue domain?

To answer your question, yes, logic will provide as many outputs as it can see through the software controlling your interface. In your signature I note you are using an antelope orion. While I'm not familiar with that particular device, I presume it offers 32 channels of D/A conversion, with 32 inputs from a DAW? In that case, you should be able to select up to 16 stereo outputs in logic's mixer routing. While these may not offer effect inserts, you can first route to aux channels, which do offer inserts, and then route these to individual stereo outputs.

kind regards

Mark

 

[facej]

When you assign a track.aux (channel) to output to 3-4 an output channel strip should get created. Inserts can be added as desired. About the only thing you can't do with an output channel strip is route it to another output or channel.

 

[captainmarko]

Does this mean you are routing out of your computer into a mixing desk or some sort of merging/summing device in the analogue domain?

Yes. Running out of the Orion into a Shadowhills Equniox for 22 tracks of analog summing. I use 1/2 to print mixes back in to the DAW.

Thanks, guys.

 

[AlexDingley]

Yes. Running out of the Orion into a Shadowhills Equniox for 22 tracks of analog summing. I use 1/2 to print mixes back in to the DAW.

Thanks, guys.

I’m doing the same thing here: Orion 32+ Out into a Dangerous 2bus+ & 2BusLT... then into my 2-Track recorder.

the output faders (as noted above) should appear by default once you route to them. I often put an insert or two on some of them. Were you originally NOT seeing the “output” channels show up?

 

[Aron Forbes]

Hello people!

I am trying to make a complete commitment to Logic and hopefully abandon PT altogether, unless working for clients for whom it is a requirement. So...I am just about ready to start mixing a batch of original songs and this will be the first time I haven't mixed in PT in 20 years.

So just a quick question, because i can't seem to find the particular answer anywhere.

My PT mix setup typically goes like this:

All tracks are routed out to an assigned stereo output, i.e. drums-3/4, bass-5/6, synths-7/8 etc, resulting in 22 channels of analog summing.

I've always had a master fader in PT for each stereo output, upon which I might place some additional magic. Does Logic allow you to create a separate master fader for each stereo output? I can't seem to find the answer anywhere and I'd like to know before I start this process whether or not I have to just suck it up and return to PT to mix.

In regards to the question “does logic allow you to create a separate master fader for each output...”

To my understanding PT master faders are their own beasts and have completely different resolution than a normal Aux or audio track within PT.

You can do the same workflow in Logic by making Aux’s and routing them out the desired analog outs. On those group aux’s you can throw on the extra plugins BUT and there is a big BUT.... Delay compensation in Logic is not remotely as good in LPX as PT.

So long as you only add plugins to group aux (drums, bass, synth.. etc) you should be fine but as parallel’s you can and will hear phasing issues depending on cpu usage of the plugin.

I’m strongly considering a summing setup as well but the delay comp issues keep scaring me off as I need to mix as I work.

 

[paulnajar]

To Captianmarko, I’m not sure what you’re hoping to get that isn’t already there. If you assign any tracks to a physical Aux channel then you can add any inserts there AND that same fader can be the master fader for the output it feeds making sure the actual output channel is left at unity. No additional mixer object required.

To Aron Forbes, I’m guessing you’re referring to the fact that Logic does not delay compensate physical outputs? It’s a simple workaround to route groups of channels through an aux to get compensation calculated before the audio hits the physical output object. I note you describe doing this but still you mention compensation issues? Care to elaborate on that?

Does everyone know about the Global Preferences/ Audio/ General setting for compensation? This should be set to “All” when mixing.

I too use 16 channels of analog summing through a pair or Cranbourne Audio 500Adat racks and don’t have any delay compensation issues but then apart from my drum group and synth stacks I rarely use plugin processing for a group. Any additional sweetening for groups gets done OTB.

Kind regards

 

[Aron Forbes]

To Captianmarko, I’m not sure what you’re hoping to get that isn’t already there. If you assign any tracks to a physical Aux channel then you can add any inserts there AND that same fader can be the master fader for the output it feeds making sure the actual output channel is left at unity. No additional mixer object required.

To Aron Forbes, I’m guessing you’re referring to the fact that Logic does not delay compensate physical outputs? It’s a simple workaround to route groups of channels through an aux to get compensation calculated before the audio hits the physical output object. I note you describe doing this but still you mention compensation issues? Care to elaborate on that?

Does everyone know about the Global Preferences/ Audio/ General setting for compensation? This should be set to “All” when mixing.

I too use 16 channels of analog summing through a pair or Cranbourne Audio 500Adat racks and don’t have any delay compensation issues but then apart from my drum group and synth stacks I rarely use plugin processing for a group. Any additional sweetening for groups gets done OTB.

Kind regards

Are you saying that instead of the output of the group auxes going to 1-2, 3-4 etc... you are running hardware inserts instead? Logic often can’t properly calculate parallels so my fear has been sending 4 aux “groups” into analogue work for summing and knowing logic is keeping the delay comp accurate.

 

[paulnajar]

No not that Aron although that’s an interesting idea. I think even if you do that the IO plugin uses the actual logic outputs anyway. I don’t use hardware inserts as that would then use another DA/ AD conversion which losses a bit of sound quality. I do all my digital plugin processing on single channels and groups before finally sending single and groups of channels to the summing mixer and then taking the stereo summed output back into my daw to record the mixdown - usually through a analog Bus compressor and Silver Bullet.

In general using as many as 8 stereo pairs and avoiding any plugins on actual output objects, delay compensation has not been a issue. Even before I had summing and before logic moved to 64bit summing I used to use as many as 10 stereo outs form Logic and sum them together in the RME Totalmix mixer before recording the digital return back into daw. No delay compensation issues then either.

 

[paulnajar]

Sorry just to be really clear. So long as you avoid any plugin processing on actual output objects and the delay comp settings are correct I’ve never had logic not manage parallels timings as you say.

 

[Aron Forbes]

Sorry just to be really clear. So long as you avoid any plugin processing on actual output objects and the delay comp settings are correct I’ve never had logic not manage parallels timings as you say.

Thanks for the response. To clarify, processing on actual "output objects" meaning you don't put any plugin processing on the group auxes going to the summing mixer? I think the original question in this thread was asking a way to be able to send to a summing mixer with the ability to sweeten up those groups before they go out to the analogue world.

Coming form pro tools I have noticed that workflows in that DAW cause delay comp issues in logic. My session is set up so that everything goes to group auxes. Drum, Bass, Synth/GTR, BGV, LEAD. and all of those auxes go to an ALL MUSIC aux with master bus processing. The master bus itself does not have anything on it except for a limiter to be safe. This aux on aux chaining in logic is what seems to cause problems but a very common workflow for PT users as PT doesn't have "low latency monitoring" so the only we to be able to cut audio on a big session is to keep your master bus processing on a master aux not the master fader. Logic's current delay comp cant handle those type of incurred latency numbers.

For example on a vocal that is going to the LEAD aux. If I send a parallel 1176 off of the vocal Logic's Compressor doesn't phase, but many other 3rd party compressors do.

Really happy to hear this works so well for you as I have been interested in summing but worried about it as Summing isnt super common within the Logic X community.

 

[paulnajar]

This is getting a bit confusing. ALL audio to leave logic must travel through an Output channel. Logic usually calls these Stereo Out, Output 3/4 etc. If you do all processing on single channels and groups of channels using an Aux channel and then send the Aux output to an “Output Channel” Logic will delay compensate everything up to but not including the “Output Channel”. All I have suggested is doing ALL processing everywhere else except on the “Output Channel” even though it has insert slots. So in answer to your first paragraph do all sweetening on single and aux grouped audio streams before sending to an actual Output and into the analog world.

Aux into Aux into Aux in Logic is not a problem. I use it all the time. If you’re actually summing to stereo in Logic then there is no problem adding final mix bus processing on strereo out since it is the final stereo stream.

If you are using more than 2 physical outputs to do analog summing outside the box then follow what I said above and avoid output channel processing. Do it all on single channels and Aux‘s before sending to physical outputs.

The compressor example you use above may suggest not all the signal is processed. Some signal may be sneaking through dry. It may be possible you don’t have Delay Compensation preference set to “All”. While I can’t be certain, in decades of plugin use I’ve never seen any brand of plugin that does not report and get latency compensated correctly in Logic. I would be looking elsewhere to track down the cause of such issue.

 

[Aron Forbes]

This is getting a bit confusing. ALL audio to leave logic must travel through an Output channel. Logic usually calls these Stereo Out, Output 3/4 etc. If you do all processing on single channels and groups of channels using an Aux channel and then send the Aux output to an “Output Channel” Logic will delay compensate everything up to but not including the “Output Channel”. All I have suggested is doing ALL processing everywhere else except on the “Output Channel” even though it has insert slots. So in answer to your first paragraph do all sweetening on single and aux grouped audio streams before sending to an actual Output and into the analog world.

Aux into Aux into Aux in Logic is not a problem. I use it all the time. If you’re actually summing to stereo in Logic then there is no problem adding final mix bus processing on strereo out since it is the final stereo stream.

If you are using more than 2 physical outputs to do analog summing outside the box then follow what I said above and avoid output channel processing. Do it all on single channels and Aux‘s before sending to physical outputs.

The compressor example you use above may suggest not all the signal is processed. Some signal may be sneaking through dry. It may be possible you don’t have Delay Compensation preference set to “All”. While I can’t be certain, in decades of plugin use I’ve never seen any brand of plugin that does not report and get latency compensated correctly in Logic. I would be looking elsewhere to track down the cause of such issue.

I think there must have been something extra confusing in my response. Seems like you are saying the same thing. If Drums aux goes to analog 1-2 and bass Aux goes to analog our 3-4 synth aux to analog 4-5 etc... you are saying everything that goes into those auxes delay compensate because they are going to an analogue output.

As for aux on aux and parallels phasing. This is a known issue by logic. A good example is taking a kick drum duplicating it and squashing the dup with plugins. It phases out and is useless. These type of Inconstancies are what worried me about phase alignment going out multiple outputs. pro tools, studio one are both wayyy better at calculating large delay comp amounts and logic will hopefully soon catch up.

Again just great to hear summing works for you as I have been wanting to go analogue summing. There just aren’t many people doing it as logic users so thanks for sharing.

 

[Markdvc]

@Aron Forbes: Can you upload an example project to illustrate how you set up in Logic. It is a little confusing to try to understand what you are saying, but perhaps you have come across some working method in Pro Tools which causes problems when attempted Logic. It would be interesting to look at that in detail. Also, you refer to some 3rd party plugins as causing problems for you. Which ones exactly?

BTW, I concur fully with Paul's comments - working that way, sending stems out through an analogue summing device, I never had any issues here with delays.

kind regards

Mark

 

[paulnajar]

I think there must have been something extra confusing in my response. Seems like you are saying the same thing. If Drums aux goes to analog 1-2 and bass Aux goes to analog our 3-4 synth aux to analog 4-5 etc... you are saying everything that goes into those auxes delay compensate because they are going to an analogue output.

As for aux on aux and parallels phasing. This is a known issue by logic. A good example is taking a kick drum duplicating it and squashing the dup with plugins. It phases out and is useless. These type of Inconstancies are what worried me about phase alignment going out multiple outputs. pro tools, studio one are both wayyy better at calculating large delay comp amounts and logic will hopefully soon catch up.

Again just great to hear summing works for you as I have been wanting to go analogue summing. There just aren’t many people doing it as logic users so thanks for sharing.

OK so that’s not a signal flow I use often other than to send channels to fx busses like reverb and delay. With those plugins a small delay can often be unnoticeable.

So with your kick drum example you physically copy the audio/ instrument track and process on one and not the other and this causes phase issues with some but not all plugins. I wonder if instead of duplicating the track and all it’s data, rather get the original track to separate processing by sending with a pre fade send on the original to an aux channel and blending the wet/ dry signals that way. Do you still get the phasing?

 

[AlexDingley]

Regarding the last leg of this conversation, and any confusion — I'm pretty confident that Logic Pro X is fully delay compensated, end-to-end on the mix paths... So if you're putting Plug-ins on tracks / then sometimes grouping them with aux channels (that might have plug-ins), and eventually routing them through mono/stereo output faders (that might also have plug-ins), you SHOULD NOT HAVE A PROBLEM with phase-shifting due to your plug-in chains.

As I mentioned in my post (way back there now) — I use 32 individual outputs from my Logic DAW through my Antelope Orion 32+... 16 of them are hitting the Dangerous 2bus+ (of those 4 channels are set as Mono), and 16 are hitting the Dangerous 2busLT (which is summed into the 2bus+)... So, I've got 14 stereo pairs + 4 Mono channels coming out of my app — that means I've got however many individual tracks and virtual instruments routed through as many as 14 Stereo Output Faders + up to 4 Mono Output Faders (and yep.. there's plenty of auxes in there too) and I've got plug-ins on just about every tier of that signal chain... I'm not suffering (from what I'm hearing & what my mastering engineer hears) any phase-issues. My drums would be the obvious place to hear it... as the kick and the snare both go out separate mono output faders, and my Overheads go out a unique stereo output fader, and my toms/extraneous percussion mics go out yet another set of stereo output faders... and my drums have been sounding excellent in the last 2yrs since I've been rigging it all up this way.

So @captainmarko — I think you should NOT have any troubles with this, sonically. Can it be a lot to map out in your head? Sure! But I think you'll be alright. If you want to really do some tests... print something that would easily evidence any phase issues (like drums-only) — do an in-the-box mix of them, and then do a mix, printing out through your summing system, and compare the resulting waveforms (just don't use any fancy summing processing options... leave out the fancy x-formers and shadow-hilliness that will make it sound super-different from your ITB mix. Just sum it clean, and compare the phase of a the SH-mix vs ITB-mix (of drums) after the fact. Feel free to post links to the tracks for other folks to listen.

 

[tg79]

Hi, I've been reading this after being a long term Logic user (20 years for production only) and also ProTools (20 years, mixing editing only).
I recently started mixing in Logic with the exact same setup, running into the exact same problems - no, even worse. And Logic Pro seems to be absolutely useless. To be precise:

I run a Mac Book Pro, M1 (fully spaced out). Logic 10.7.3, UAD Apollo x8

My session is setup in the following way:
DRUMS; BASS; SYNTHS, VOCALS; FX are all routed into BUSSES (Drums, for instance have sub busses, like you would in ProTools/like a lot of the big mixing engineers out there do it as well).
These BUSSES then will be routed to the individual physical OUTS of my Uad Apollo Interface (1-8) ----> into a Dangerous Music 2 BUS LT

And then back into Logic. The result is absolutely useless. The individual stems (DRUMS; BASS; SYNTHS, VOCALS; FX) don't only have phase issues, like the original post suggests, they are completely off sync. Like by a quarter note. Absolute chaos. Logic does not compensate for latency that occurs in busses, at least not for me. I have set the DELAY COMPENSATION to ALL. And thanks to my M1 Mac I'm able to run the smallest buffer size without any issues. But the result is still unusable.

Any ideas what settings I could've messed up royally in order to get these awful results? What are your settings in regards to Processing Threads, Process Buffer Range, Multithreading?

THANKS!!!!

 

[paulnajar]

Hi, I've been reading this after being a long term Logic user (20 years for production only) and also ProTools (20 years, mixing editing only).
I recently started mixing in Logic with the exact same setup, running into the exact same problems - no, even worse. And Logic Pro seems to be absolutely useless. To be precise:

I run a Mac Book Pro, M1 (fully spaced out). Logic 10.7.3, UAD Apollo x8

My session is setup in the following way:
DRUMS; BASS; SYNTHS, VOCALS; FX are all routed into BUSSES (Drums, for instance have sub busses, like you would in ProTools/like a lot of the big mixing engineers out there do it as well).
These BUSSES then will be routed to the individual physical OUTS of my Uad Apollo Interface (1-8) ----> into a Dangerous Music 2 BUS LT

And then back into Logic. The result is absolutely useless. The individual stems (DRUMS; BASS; SYNTHS, VOCALS; FX) don't only have phase issues, like the original post suggests, they are completely off sync. Like by a quarter note. Absolute chaos. Logic does not compensate for latency that occurs in busses, at least not for me. I have set the DELAY COMPENSATION to ALL. And thanks to my M1 Mac I'm able to run the smallest buffer size without any issues. But the result is still unusable.

Any ideas what settings I could've messed up royally in order to get these awful results? What are your settings in regards to Processing Threads, Process Buffer Range, Multithreading?

THANKS!!!!

How many channels do you return from Dangerous into the Apollo? Just the 2 channel summed mix or more than 2 channels? If it's more than 2 channels what happens if you remove the external analog loop completely and only listen to everything in the box coming out 2 outputs? Is it all in sync then?

I'm also gonna have a stab in the dark and say check your Apollo Console software and not Logic. Make sure you remove all plugin processing from within the Console software if you have anything going on there because Logic can't know about the delays imposed by that.

 

[wessnyle]

Has anyone figured out a fix for this non-syncing BS? I’ve been a logic user for 10 years but I recently decided to venture into the analog world. I have a 2bus+ and a Neve Orbit, and both of those then feed into a Cranborne 500 ADAT for the final summing. I was mostly ITB in the past so I had no idea about this ridiculous latency issue. I’m kind of blown away that Apple has willingly let this problem happen in the first place, much less take this long to address. I’ve tried everything mentioned in this feed and nothing has worked. The audio is so incredibly out of sync that it’s completely useless! Does anyone have any new solutions or am I switching to Pro Tools? Thanks in advance!

 

[Markdvc]

Not sure exactly what you mean by ""non-syncing BS" and "ridiculous latency issue". As already mentioned in this thread, logic has various latency compensation settings which work well. If you are looking for help, then you will need to go into some detail as to your set up and routing.

A shot in the dark: Presumably you are running logic with several channel output objects in the mixer which feed submixes/stems to your outboard analogue equipment? If so, are you using latency inducing plugins inserted on any of these output channel strips? If so, change your routing by inserting an aux channel strip before each of these outputs - in other words, anything routed directly to an output goes to an aux, which in turn goes to an output. Move the plugins from the outputs to the respective aux strips and see if that helps.

If not, details, details, details....🙂

kind regards

Mark