Logic Pro 9 Midi Guitar and Logic

[Bolder]

I'm working on making some demos of a Banjo sample library that I am producing.

I'm using the midi converter of Rolands VG-99 system - (very sluggish tracking BTW) into Logic 9.

I have a Kontakt Multi instrument (.nkm) loaded into one of the VI tracks of Logic. Each string of the midi guitar is transmitting on a separate midi channel (string 1 - channel 1, string 2 channel 2 etc... ). The multi is set up this way so if I go "up the neck" of the virtual banjo, I'll still hear the correct sample played for that string. All this is working fine and the end result is quite real.

BUT - the problem I am having is when I look at the event list, for each note I play on the midi guitar, 2 notes show up in the event list! I've had to delete them manually which is very tedious.

When I launch Kontakt as a stand-alone app, Kontakt shows that for each note played only 1 voice or midi note is being triggered per note played (as it should work). So this anomaly is occurring in the Logic environment only.

Any clues as to why this is occurring and how it might be remedied? It is making the playback of the sequences quite glitchy.

Thanks!
Dennis @ BolderSounds

 

[sonnykeyes]

Hey Dennis,

First of all, you've made some tasty sample libraries, and everyone here should know about them!

Secondly, I'm guessing your MIDI routing somehow has a loop or a splitter or something that's generating the duplicates, but in the short term you can save yourself deleting time by going to the Functions menu in a MIDI Edit window (Piano Roll, Score or Hyper Edit) and selecting Delete MIDI Events->Duplicates.

If you've already found that, all I can say is that you may have discovered one of the reasons the programmers saw fit to include such a menu item in the app - I remember it used to be a pretty frequent issue in earlier iterations.

 

[CSeye]

You might find some answers here in the Input Filtering section here: http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67959

What type of pickup are you using? GK-3? Piezo?
You may need to... fiddle... with GK Settings to obtain optimal playing response without resulting double triggers.

Can you post an image of your Piano Roll and Event? Seeing note duration, duplicate notes etc will help address the situation?

Delete Duplicates as already mentioned works great.

Also having a Transform preset to remove short notes as shown in the link above works very well, unless the duplicates are of the same length or velocity. I identify the length/velocity values for the largest of the known false-triggered notes, then enter that value in the Length column parameters: <= ___ whatever the value is. Click on the Select Only button to see if the filter is doing what you want it to do.

I have a GR-55 which is an amazing COSM sound source, but a terrible MIDI controller for external sound sources. My preferred set up these days is a Godin LGX-SA and a Roland GI-20. I can actually play bass riffs on the open E and A strings with minimal or no false triggers. The GR-55 on the other hand has an unacceptably long delay from time of picking string to sound out put. Darn shame!!! Bass has to be played on octave higher etc.

 

[sonnykeyes]

Oooh, yes, the input filter "Filter Matching Events" looks like it would do the trick, but re-read Dennis' original post - he's not getting double triggers from the guitar, it doesn't do it when he's plugged into Kontakt, only Logic.

 

[Bolder]

Thanks for the suggestions gents! I'll give these a try.

I actually have 2 midi guitars, so I tried it with a jazz guitar with heavy gauge strings and the tracking seemed to be much better than on my strat which seems way too sensitive when releasing my finger off a string (even after turning down the string sensitivity).

I've had less of a problem since I set the polyphony of each channel to 1 voice only in the Kontakt multi. But I suspected that having the duplicate events was doing some strange triggering behavior.

And just to clarify - the duplicate voices only appear in the Logic midi environment, not Kontakt stand-alone. I was just wondering if there was a simple midi preference setting that I might be overlooking.

I reminds me of the days when I would use my Kurzweil to sequence in Logic with Kurzweil Rom or samples and you would get a midi feedback thing going on if 'local control' was not turned off.

I'll keep you posted on my progress!
Dennis

 

[Bolder]

Here is a short demo I did yesterday -
http://soundcloud.com/bolder-sounds/hard-aintt-it-hard
Dennis

 

[Orren Merton]

Here is a short demo I did yesterday -
http://soundcloud.com/bolder-sounds/hard-aintt-it-hard
Dennis

Excellent playing and sample library! Great use of MIDI Guitar as well! As a MIDI guitarist myself, I really don't have any advice you haven't been given already. The Roland GR-55 I have has a number of parameters for different Piezo pickups that give you more settings to adjust; I'm not sure if the VG-99 does, but if it does, it's probably worth your time to go into the GK-settings, chose whatever pickup manufacturer does the pickup on your start (I'm guessing it's a graph tech install?), and adjust to taste. That and the filters are the best you can do.

BTW, you can embed soundcloud audio using the media icon above the text editor

And it looks like this:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

(And yes, the solo of this song is guitar synth, so there is some relevance! 😉 )

Orren

 

[CSeye]

I actually have 2 midi guitars, so I tried it with a jazz guitar with heavy gauge strings and the tracking seemed to be much better than on my strat which seems way too sensitive when releasing my finger off a string (even after turning down the string sensitivity).

Tracking is better but are you seeing fewer duplicate notes with the Jazz guitar?

I've had less of a problem since I set the polyphony of each channel to 1 voice only in the Kontakt multi. But I suspected that having the duplicate events was doing some strange triggering behavior.

And just to clarify - the duplicate voices only appear in the Logic midi environment, not Kontakt stand-alone. I was just wondering if there was a simple midi preference setting that I might be overlooking.

Try this: Open Logic's Empty template with just the default Environment. Load a single instrument. Also open the Clicks and Ports window of the Environment to view the Monitor. Heck, also open an Event List. Play, record some notes.

Are you still getting the dups? If not, then add the next piece of your set up until the dups appear.

I reminds me of the days when I would use my Kurzweil to sequence in Logic with Kurzweil Rom or samples and you would get a midi feedback thing going on if 'local control' was not turned off.

I'll keep you posted on my progress!
Dennis

Ditto on the recommendation to tweak GK settings.

 

[CSeye]

Not knowing the specifics of your Environment and Kontakt set up, I can tell you that simpler is better.

No duplicate notes in Logic during any of the tests below with either a Godin LGX-SA with RMC piezos or a GK-3 mounted on a Gibson SG. GK pickup selected accordingly in the GR-55 (the younger sibling of the mighty VG-99):

Kontakt multi with 6 instruments, each set to a different channel- 6 through 1.
Duplicated the initial Kontakt track in Logic, set each track to an individual channel.
Settings>Recording with Auto Demix by Channel checked on.
Result: A part per track, each on a separate channel. No dupes noted in the Event List.
In this case, all regions can be Moved to the Selected Track from the Local Region menu.

One instance of Kontakt as above. Track set to MIDI Channel All.
Auto Demix unchecked.
Result: One region with data from all channels present, triggering each Kontakt instrument in the multi as expected. No dupes noted in the Event List.

I'm not trying to be a wise-acher (as that's a gift 😀), but maybe just avoiding anything complex in the Environment might give you fewer headaches.

Environment heavy weights will no doubt have a different point of view.

 

[Bolder]

CSeye - thanks for all the info ... will test further when I have time.

Orren - thanks as well. I realized there was a SoundCloud tag, but obviously used it incorrectly ... I'm notorious for screwing things up like this. And your tune "Sick Of It" - I'm not sick of it, it is cool. Sort of like a cross between Bowie and Cake was my first thought.

I'll try this again -

ADMIN EDIT: dead link removed

Sonny - I appreciate your kind words about my libraries!

Once I get the problems ironed out with Kontakt and the synth guitar i will move onto the EXS24. My initial experimentation wtih the EXS also yielded weird results when dealing with multiple midi channels. But one thing at a time.

Thanks!
Dennis @ Bolder

 

[Bolder]

I'm using a Roland GK-3

I've scanned through every page on the VG-99 and tried many different settings and am not able to eliminate the duplicate notes.

Also I'm finding the "functions>delete duplicate midi events" not to work. I'm assuming it is because the event list notes are separated by a couple of ticks and are then considered different events? The attached example is just playing a scale very slowly. Using the default midi setup with only the EVP88 loaded into 1 track.

 

[Orren Merton]

First of all, thanks for the compliment on my song!

I'm using a Roland GK-3
I've scanned through every page on the VG-99 and tried many different settings and am not able to eliminate the duplicate notes.

I have found on the GR-55 that lowering the string sensitivity to the point that I have to start picking seriously hard helps. It may not work for you (or the parameter may not be on the VG-99) but it's worth trying, if you haven't yet.

Also I'm finding the "functions>delete duplicate midi events" not to work. I'm assuming it is because the event list notes are separated by a couple of ticks and are then considered different events? The attached example is just playing a scale very slowly. Using the default midi setup with only the EVP88 loaded into 1 track.

You are correct-because they are not at the same time, they are separate events, not duplicates.

What I am wondering is if perhaps the problem isn't with the tracking, but that for whatever reason, your VG-99 is "appearing" twice to Logic? Right now, your sequencer input is coming from the SUM output. Maybe try move it to just the VG-99 MIDI? Not sure if that will do anything, but it is possible that the doubling is happening at Logic's input, and not the VG-99.

Orren

 

[CSeye]

This is very strange!

You're right! The notes in your Event list are separate events, not dupes, due to the the 2 tick difference . So "functions>delete duplicate midi events" will not work here.

So just the Empty Project, no additions to the default Environment on another layer?
Weird.

Can you input notes with the Caps Lock Keyboard without getting double notes? Hit the Caps lock key on the computer keyboard, then record notes into Logic using computer keyboard.

What happens if you unplug your Faderport, then record into Logic?

My GR-55 shows up in Logic's physical input object as just ...GR-55. I noticed your's say VG-99 Control. Sounds like a more elaborate set up.

Do you have any other MIDI controllers? Keyboard? Other MIDI guitar converter? If so, has this happened with them?

 

[Bolder]

Do you have any other MIDI controllers? Keyboard? Other MIDI guitar converter? If so, has this happened with them?

Yes .. I have 3 midi keyboards that I regular use and they work just fine with no duplicate events. One is a Roland PCR300, a Axiom 61 and a Kurzweil K2500. I disconnected them from the USB port just for troubleshooting purposes to simplify.

I posted this problem to the VG-8 group (which covers the VG-99 as well) and received no responses.

Also to clarify - I have tested the VG-99 into Kontakt as a stand alone instrument with each midi channel set to more than one voice. If the problem was coming from false triggering of notes from the VG-99, I would be hearing some kind of phasing issue with 2 samples being played at 1 time, but this is simply not the case. Kontakt is showing me that only 1 voice is being triggered with each note in stand alone mode, and there is no audible phasing of any kind .. it sounds just fine. So my feeling is it has something to do with a conflict/bug of Roland USB output into Logics midi input. Is it possible that a note-on is being sent to Logic, and that same note-on is being sent back to the VG-99 and somehow that is being sent to Logic again a couple of ticks later?

Dennis

 

[CSeye]

So my feeling is it has something to do with a conflict/bug of Roland USB output into Logics midi input. Is it possible that a note-on is being sent to Logic, and that same note-on is being sent back to the VG-99 and somehow that is being sent to Logic again a couple of ticks later?

Dennis

I've used the GR-55 via USB quite a bit in my home studio and have never run into this double note situation.

Does you audio interface have MIDI ports or do you have a separate MIDI interface that you could connect to vs. USB?

Also, do you have another DAW that you could record MIDI into?

I don't think this is a tracking issue.

 

[xmiinc]

My 2 cents, being a midi guitarist myself, but perhaps not directly relavent to the OPs actual problem?: If the double triggers are a result of some over-sensitivity of the pickup/conversion process, dampen the strings by putting a strip of cloth underneath the strings close to the nut. It'll sound crappy as a guitar but do wonders for accurate triggering. (I use an ancient Casio PG-380 for midi triggering)

 

[CSeye]

My 2 cents, being a midi guitarist myself, but perhaps not directly relavent to the OPs actual problem?: If the double triggers are a result of some over-sensitivity of the pickup/conversion process, dampen the strings by putting a strip of cloth underneath the strings close to the nut. It'll sound crappy as a guitar but do wonders for accurate triggering. (I use an ancient Casio PG-380 for midi triggering)

Dampening as you describe has been recommended especially for guitars equipped with piezo pickups. Very useful when tracking accuracy for MIDI sequencing is the priority.

What's really puzzling about the OP's situation is the uniformity of the 2 tick difference in note position vs. random double notes, false triggers, ghost notes, or whatever which is what one would expect if it were a sensitivity setting issue. Or fumbling fingers as in my case. 😉

Having said that, optimizing sensitivity and use of dampening techniques etc are critical to getting an acceptable level of performance accuracy.

 

[xmiinc]

Yeh, I thought about that but I guess I didn't look at his gifs closely enough...I thought his first 2 triggers were different, but in fact the OP is operating at a low tick rez...so, yep, still 2 ticks...definitely odd!

My 2 cents, being a midi guitarist myself, but perhaps not directly relavent to the OPs actual problem?: If the double triggers are a result of some over-sensitivity of the pickup/conversion process, dampen the strings by putting a strip of cloth underneath the strings close to the nut. It'll sound crappy as a guitar but do wonders for accurate triggering. (I use an ancient Casio PG-380 for midi triggering)

Dampening as you describe has been recommended especially for guitars equipped with piezo pickups. Very useful when tracking accuracy for MIDI sequencing is the priority.

What's really puzzling about the OP's situation is the uniformity of the 2 tick difference in note position vs. random double notes, false triggers, ghost notes, or whatever which is what one would expect if it were a sensitivity setting issue. Or fumbling fingers as in my case. 😉

Having said that, optimizing sensitivity and use of dampening techniques etc are critical to getting an acceptable level of performance accuracy.

 

[Bolder]

Finally have solved this mystery ... although I must admit that I do not understand *why*.

On the VG-99 in the System section there are "midi system pages" One one of them I have the option of turning USB-MIDI IN and OUT ( 2 separate buttons ) to ON or OFF.

When I turn both buttons to OFF, the duplicate midi events no longer occur in Logic. Just one midi note per note played (yeah!!).

I AM using the USB connection for midi transmission out. I am not using the midi ports out at all. So I'm confused as to why turning the USB midi functions off, that I still am generating midi out of the USB port.

Thanks for all the help and I hope to be testing this with the EXS soon and I'm sure I'll have a couple more questions!

Dennis @ Bolder

 

[CSeye]

Excellent news!!!

Good thing you discovered that setting.

Speaking from personal experience, this kind of nonsense can drive a person crazy.