Pitch and Time Automation
- Thread starter mk3
- Start date
alienimplant
Logician
Indeed! Apple: please refer to ProTools 8. (Pssst, hey kids: In all seriousness I suspect they are working on this as we speak; it's in very high demand.)
Personally, I would like the ability to select any region and change it's pitch without changing the time, so I can cut up a rhythm loop and change the pitch of any one hit in the arrange non-destructively.
Personally, I would like the ability to select any region and change it's pitch without changing the time, so I can cut up a rhythm loop and change the pitch of any one hit in the arrange non-destructively.
mk3
Logician
I hope you are correct that they are working on it. Maybe they could just license the Melodyne algorithms instead of reinventing the wheel. Melodyne is a fantastic-sounding tool, but I don't like having to record the audio into the plug-in window before use. Waves Tune requires the same two-step process. This limits changes to the structure of the project, also...If one inserts or deletes measures, then one has to re-record the audio into the plug-in, and start over.
mk3
Logician
Exactly: pitch and timing should be two separate automated parameters, via some system like the movable/stretchable audio "blobs" in Melodyne.
alienimplant
Logician
I have Melodyne plugin too. I couldn't agree more. I wish they would license the technology, especially considering Direct Note Access is on the horizon. I can't WAIT! [drools]
mk3
Logician
I think ALL the other sequencers (ProTools, Cubase, DP) have at least Pitch Automation like this, if not time automation.
An additional powerful feature would be true "liquid audio" as in Ableton Live, wherein the internal structure of a given region can be stretched and contracted to as fine a degree as desired. One could tighten up the timing precisely of a part, or do special effects, or change the phrasing and feel of a vocal part at the atomic level.
An additional powerful feature would be true "liquid audio" as in Ableton Live, wherein the internal structure of a given region can be stretched and contracted to as fine a degree as desired. One could tighten up the timing precisely of a part, or do special effects, or change the phrasing and feel of a vocal part at the atomic level.
alienimplant
Logician
Until Logic implements pitch automation independently of time, there is a great plugin out that any native Logic implementation is not likely to rival, Quik Qack's Pitchwheel. Check it out. To bad it costs about $50, but I might pick it up anyway because I like the extra parameters that control glide A LOT. 
http://www.quikquak.com/Prod_Pitchwheel.html
http://www.quikquak.com/Prod_Pitchwheel.html
I'll second (or whichever ordinal I come in at) the call for pitch correction. I've got a couple of plugins( including the one in logic) for pitch correction, but it's like doing surgery with a cleaver instead of a scalpel. I just want to fix one or two errant offenders in what otherwise would be a great take/comp. DP offers this, and I end up exporting the track, rebooting my computer off another hard drive in Tiger, and running the file through DP. It's a major hassle but worth it over calling the artist back into the studio.
I also second the call for Ableton Live time stretching. That's one of the features I absolutely love about that program.
I also second the call for Ableton Live time stretching. That's one of the features I absolutely love about that program.
mk3
Logician
As point of comparison, here is the implementation of similar features on other platforms:
Digital Performer - Pitch Automation
http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/pitch-auto.html
Pro Tools - Elastic Time; Elastic Pitch
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&navid=514&itemid=35971
Cubase - VariAudio
http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/musicproduction/cubase5_product/cubase5_newfeatures/cubase5_newfeatures_2.html
...mk3
Digital Performer - Pitch Automation
http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/pitch-auto.html
Pro Tools - Elastic Time; Elastic Pitch
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&navid=514&itemid=35971
Cubase - VariAudio
http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/musicproduction/cubase5_product/cubase5_newfeatures/cubase5_newfeatures_2.html
...mk3
S
Sascha Franck
Guest
I may probably add that both Samplitude and Sonar come with their own interpretations (and algorhythms) of a Melodyne-alike editing, too.
I am however not sure whether I like the idea of Apple licensing things from Melodyne, for a variety of reasons that I won't go into right here, the main one however probably being that this could take the wonderful Melodyne away from others (I couldn't imagine how such a deal could be anything else but exclusive). This could even be bad for Logic users, simply because quite some of use seem to work with other applications from time to time, too, and not having Melodyne available in those anymore can't be a good thing in my book (as you might've guessed, I'm not much of a friend of proprietary formats).
I do totally agree that something needs to be done in the area of audio editing in general,though, and probably specifically in the area of what we may call "liquid", "elastic" or whatever.
i have recently gotten my Cubase 5 update, and while I still can't seem to get warm with the workflow (even if I started sequencing with Cubase), the built in VariAudio functionality is really nice - and quite some of the other audio editing options are as well.
For a start, it'd probably be a good idea if Apple improved the internal stretching/pitching algorithms, maybe implementing them into a Melodyne-alike interface later on. For most of the things I'd like to stretch/pitch, the algorithms coming with Logic are barely useable, whereas the MPEX algorithm supplied with, say, Cubase is quite good already.
Anyway, whatever improvements might be done, I'm sure they'd be highly welcomed by the majority of users.
- Sascha
I am however not sure whether I like the idea of Apple licensing things from Melodyne, for a variety of reasons that I won't go into right here, the main one however probably being that this could take the wonderful Melodyne away from others (I couldn't imagine how such a deal could be anything else but exclusive). This could even be bad for Logic users, simply because quite some of use seem to work with other applications from time to time, too, and not having Melodyne available in those anymore can't be a good thing in my book (as you might've guessed, I'm not much of a friend of proprietary formats).
I do totally agree that something needs to be done in the area of audio editing in general,though, and probably specifically in the area of what we may call "liquid", "elastic" or whatever.
i have recently gotten my Cubase 5 update, and while I still can't seem to get warm with the workflow (even if I started sequencing with Cubase), the built in VariAudio functionality is really nice - and quite some of the other audio editing options are as well.
For a start, it'd probably be a good idea if Apple improved the internal stretching/pitching algorithms, maybe implementing them into a Melodyne-alike interface later on. For most of the things I'd like to stretch/pitch, the algorithms coming with Logic are barely useable, whereas the MPEX algorithm supplied with, say, Cubase is quite good already.
Anyway, whatever improvements might be done, I'm sure they'd be highly welcomed by the majority of users.
- Sascha
A Logic 9 without (melodyne) pitch correction would probably be a death-blow. But there is one thing that not even Melodyne has and that's an "amplitude-brush". When there is a vibrato, 2 things oscillate, frequency AND amplitude. Frequencies you can straighten out, leaving the amplitude waving up-down, up-down. A Photo-shop style, brush would be nice, brush away the bump in amplitude that you don't want. Nice and straight singing.
mk3
Logician
Well, now we're halfway there, in the immortal words of Bon Jovi.
We have something like the "liquid audio" non-destructive editing of audio in the horizontal time domain, but not pitch. The functionality seems more akin to Ableton Live than Melodyne.
Let's hope that the non-destructive track-based pitch automation is coming soon.
mk3
We have something like the "liquid audio" non-destructive editing of audio in the horizontal time domain, but not pitch. The functionality seems more akin to Ableton Live than Melodyne.
Let's hope that the non-destructive track-based pitch automation is coming soon.
mk3
alienimplant
Logician
so frustrating. the backbone for this is already there. it's shocking to me that it isn't fully implemented. :/
mk3
Logician
So now I am considering one of the pitch-correction plug-ins. I was not impressed with the sound quality of AutoTune compared to Waves Tune and Melodyne. Any recommendations on which of the latter two is a better companion to Logic 9, now that we have Flextime?
Thank you for any advice...
mk3
Thank you for any advice...
mk3
alienimplant
Logician
I've been interested in QuikQuak's Pitchwheel. It's about about $50 or so.
I love flextime. I am using Melodynes 8-track Cre8 editor as a plug-in to Logic 9. Now I never bother with Melodynes time-stretch because Logic Flex-time is smother. Pitch-shifting in Melodyne is great. The one thing that neither Logic or Melodyne can do is handle timbre variation in human vibrato when time-stretching. It gets drawn out, gets slow as "old woman singing". Can't stretch hard vibrato very much. Gonna have to use a clone-tool to do that. (Copy vibratoed sample from here and paste there, something like that). I am very happy with Melodyne pitch and Logic Flex. I would buy the coming Melodyne Editor if I didn't have any. It's a Plug-in, a stand-alone program, you can scrub and hear notes as you move them and it's polyphonic. You can grab a note inside a chord and change the chord. I don't have experience of any other pitch-editors but Melodyne goes well with Logic for me.
mk3
Logician
Thank you for all the info, Ming.... When you say Flextime is smoother, do you mean in terms of ease of use, or that the sound quality is actually superior?
Best,
mk3
I mean Flextime is in my opinion much smother in terms of ease of use. In Logics arrange-window there's stretching and moving of audio together with the comping functions. Regarding sound quality, I stretch vocals "normal" 20-30% or so. It sounds fairly the same or at least no obvious difference in this kind of stretching. But on extreme stretching, yes it might prove that Melodyne has a very good algorithm for that, prolonging say 200-300% or more. Having both program gives opportunity to find the best solution but basically when using Logic horizontally and Melodyne vertically I can do most things. Melodyne is very good vertically, it still surprise me that I can shift notes so dramatically and rebuild songs with sustained quality. So getting Melodyne Editor is an extra cost but it gives value for the $.