Logic Pro 8 roland XV /Logic MIdi frustration

mazgurg

Logician
con't Logic XV5080 frustration

Thanks Gblack
that was extra good of you to post all those settings on the forum. I did check all as posted, inc. 'last used instruments' etc and thanks to George as well for his comments on the aspect of replacing all cables , which I did,( all firewire all new midi and cables from Axiom 49 back to computer) - however both the two original issues remain, the notes sustaining and the inability to control the bank select and the program change. I now think that after having exhausted all possibilities the last and final step is to replace the audio interface. That seems to be the last thing on the list.
When i get that installed I will let you know the outcome.
thanks to both of you for your suggestions and support
cheers
Mazgurg
 
While I imagine there might be a 1% chance the audio interface is involved, I really doubt it.

Let me get this straight...

Computer > usb> Axiom >Midi> 5080

Is that correct?

George Leger III
 

gblack

Logician
Maz - I should tell you, that I opened an older Logic lso that would NOT change the settings on the machines - your problem exactly. I have not gone through every detail of comparison of the two songs, but I will shortly. It has to be a song setting, because one will, and one won't, both identical environments. I seriously doubt it is your audio interface. If I find a difference in these two lsos, I'll post back here and report.
 

gblack

Logician
MAZ - drop me an email (in my profile, it's public). I can send you a stripped-down LSO that I've tested with the 5080. It's my main template, with all unnecessary layers removed. It works fine in 9, and you should be able to open it with Logic 8 without problems; just ignore the warnings. All you'll need to do is re-assign the proper midi port for your 5080.

I really want to see you get this problem fixed!
 

mazgurg

Logician
HI GEORGE
axiom to computer via USB
computer to M audio via firewire
roland to M audio via midi
cheers
Maz
 

mazgurg

Logician
logic LSO & logic frustration

hi GBlack
believe it or not loaded the Logic file , got one Audio track and an XV5080 track and boo hoo hoo same story, well anyway sustaining notes -
Thanks very much for your help, you have stepped up to the task way beyond what I expected. I think I will pull the whole system apart and start again. The only thing I can think of is that there is a problem with My Roland when it is in Performance mode. A trip to roland can't hurt. It's wierd that the roland performs beautifully when not attached to the sequencer.
ANYHOW
thanks
mazgurg
 
Having upgraded to logic 8 from Logic 6.4 I have almost got to a point whereby the technology is so confounding that I am not involved in music any more but involved in software. I decided to ditch midi several years ago and go as the industry seems to be pushing me towards software instruments. I did everything required, I bought the super fast Mac I upgraded ram, I tried to like garage band and Apples bunch of Instruments. However I just longed for a Roland Bass or that quirky pad that always seemed useless but somehow just sits in a mix. So I went out and bought a Roland Xv5080 but it seems as though Apple has pushed roland out the door , when emagic seemed to support Roland and many other Companies. I cannot get a Multiset for that Roland Module from the Logic 8 software and anything that I try and fish from the internet doesn't work properly. (the whole idea is that if program change and Bank Select messages don't work then your module is useless). So my final question is , does anyone know how to get a Roland XV5080 to work correctly in Logic? Do more recent Fantom Modules work in Logic(Bank select and Program Change). What is the midi Apple story? or am I barking up the wrong tree -and - if so -what tree should I be Barking up?
cheers
Hi I am using a Roland XV 3080, which is likely very similar to the XV 5080 for bank and program selection over midi.
You will need to create a MULTI-INSTRUMENT in the Environment window and then go to OPTIONS menu and select the "define custom Bank messages" . Onces you have that window up you will need to dreate the BANK MESSAGES for that device. I have done this for a lot of keyboards and modules, but not the XV 5080. You might be able to use the Multi-instruments I have, but they may mot be all that the XV 5080 needs to access everything (all Programs and Samples). If you want to contact me by phone I will try to help you. I don't know how well you know the Logic Environment, but most anything can be done in the environment. The sounds in my XV 3080 may be the same as yours. The environments I have do have the all the instrument names too, which really is a lot of work to type all the names in. I do assure you that the XV 5080 can be used, but it is a little confusing. Once you set it up, the sounds will be great and many too.
Let me know!
my email is banks665@hotmail.com
Frank
 

gblack

Logician
I really hate to see you guys not get the 5080 up and running with Logic. It can be done, and it is very effective. In fact, you can tempo-sync the first three midi channels for all those patches that have LFOs rendering pulsating, or any timed effect.

The performance must be set up correctly with the machine, of course, and it's fairly simple.

If any of you wish a template for use with the 5080, my email address is public. If I know which expansion cards you have, I can likewise set those up for you. Email me, I'll know where to send it. I understand Logic 8 will import Logic 9 files, just ignore the warnings, copy the environment layer to your v.8 file, and save it.

I use two 5080s, and access 64 separate tracks of sounds, in my case, usually symphonic stuff, from the Orchestral cards (JV and SRX).

It CAN be done. I'm willing to help anyone with the patience.

Best,

Gil
 

mazgurg

Logician
XV5080 Frustration Con't

hi
O.K. in the logic pro manual it says 'double clicking a multi instrument window opens the Multi instrument window.
Firstly--- it doesn't.
I have used this window from the Multi int. in Logic 6.4 doing exactly this. I.e typing in names for various patch banks and selecting Banks as per options available within that window.
If I double click and hold -it opens. As soon as I let go of the mouse it closes. I used this in 6.4. but can't open it in logic 8.
SECONDLY: going to "options " within the environment (Midi Inst.), I am able to open up the " Define custom bank messages" (the one similar to the Event List) but this window is different to the window of the "multi Instrument".
Despite that, in the 'Custom Bank Messages" (the one like the Event list) I am able to change the MSB for all banks which for the XV5080 is 87 for most banks , however there is no facility to change the LSB. In the roland manual the LSB's for each Bank are different. At this point I am in the deep end.
so , as an overview; I have created a new song, created 1 multi instrument in which I have activated 5 sub channels. All sub channels have a tick in the program box;
all sub channels are on a seperate corresponding channel,
I have left a GM multi in the environment that was there when I created this song template although no sub channels have been activated on it;
the roland has been reset to Factory default and the performance I am using is ;
PR-A 01 SEQ template, which Roland says is the recommended perf. for computers;
all cables are new;

Conclusion:
I don't know why I can't open that Multi set window
secondly, I don't know if I am using that 'Define Custom Bank Messages' window( the one like the Event List) correctly as there is no facility for LSB's
and finally I am still getting those sustaining notes throughout all patches.
cheers
Mazgurg
PS thanks for the ongoing curiosity.
 

gblack

Logician
MAZ: That it is the behavior of Logic 8 with OSX 10.6.2. It was also the behavior of v.9 with 10.6.2 until Apple fixed Logic. You can't get the bank editor to stay open in that environment. Wish I could tell you better, but that's kinda the way it is. Go back to 10.5, or get Logic 9, is really the only answer.

As for custom bank messages, open the sample file I sent you, go to the environment, select the 5080 multi, from the local menu choose Options -> Define Custom Bank Messages, and you will see the correct setup.

Best luck still!

gb
 

mazgurg

Logician
XV5080 update

hi Gil and all,
reinstalled OS10.5.8, reinstalled correct drivers for M audio, checked roland template SEQ PRA:01---installed Gblacks' XV5080 Environment, checked correct ports (for me- Firewire Audiophile), checked programs and bank selects.
Now, I have 24 ish midi tracks consisting of XV 5080 a + b multi's. From within Logic - I can control the patch banks and program changes. I have all the corresponding Patch names and the patches all working.
Problem no.1
If I close a song and re-open it the Patches no longer correspond to the previously selected patch and It seems for all tracks I have the same patch until I go to the Track , deselect the original patch and reselect it. This is the same problem for all Tracks.
Problem no. 2
Still have notes randomly sustaining

throughout this journey the only thing I can see different is that my Firewire audiophile only has a midi in and out and the Xv Multi, was using 2 midi ins. Could there be any conflict there?
other than that ---I'm out
cheers
Maz
 

gblack

Logician
Maz: If you have only one midi out, you can use "Midi In 1" on the 5080, but not both Midi In 1 AND Midi In 2. And, in the Performance Template called "PRA:01 Seq: Template - the machine is set up such that voices 17-32 receive BOTH Midi In 1 and Midi In 2.

So, when you have more than 16 tracks in Logic, the machine is receiving channel info from more than one source. Try using only 16 tracks in Logic, one Midi port, and setting the performance such that voices 17-32 have Midi 1 and Midi 2 receive BOTH OFF. That way, the 16 channels you are using will only get one bank/patch message.

I have two Midi Out ports. One is feeds Midi In 1 on the machine, the other feeds Midi In 2 on the machine. My performance is set up such that, for voices 1-16, Midi In 1 is ON, and Midi In 2 is OFF. For the second multi instance, that Logic multi is assigned to the second Midi port in Logic, and the machine performance is set up so that voices 17-32 have Midi in 1 OFF, and Midi In 2 ON.

Again, the default template is goofed up. Voices 17-32 have Midi In 1 AND Midi In 2 receive "ON". Thus, any track in Logic that has a particular midi channel will send the bank and patch to 2 voices - 1 and 17, 2 and 18, etc. This is the machine default for a reason - it is assumed that folks have only one Midi Out from their computer, and want to layer the patches (more than one patch on a given midi channel.

Stick to 16 tracks, 16 channels, and your one midi port, and turn OFF voices 16-32, until you have a second midi port.

Hope this helps.

G
 

mazgurg

Logician
Hi
When you say
"setting the performance such that voices 17-32 have Midi 1 and Midi 2 receive BOTH OFF. That way, the 16 channels you are using will only get one bank/patch message."
are you referring to the performance template Pra-1 SEQ. ?
where are the settings for voices 17-32?
cheers
 

gblack

Logician
The settings for any performance can be viewed or edited by:

From PERFORMANCE mode:

[F4] Midi

The palette is opened automatically. Parts 1-8 run left to right, across the LED. To advance to further voices, use the right arrow, or the 16 PART buttons on the face of the 5080 - the button to the right of the 8 pairs of PART buttons choose either Parts 1-16 or 17-32, just like the blue label says.

On the LED, below each Part you see the critical settings:

Receive Channel
Mute Switch
Receive Switch
Receive MIDI1
Receive MIDI2

You have a single midi-out port on your setup. Go to Parts 1-16, and set:

Receive Channel = (same as Part No: Part 1 = Ch1 . . . Part 16 = Ch16)
Mute Switch = OFF
Receive Switch = ON
Receive MIDI1 = ON
Receive MIDI2= OFF


Go to Parts 17-32, and set:

Receive Channel = (same as Part No. minus 16: Part 17 = Ch1 . . . Part 32 = Ch16)
Mute Switch = OFF
Receive Switch = ON
Receive MIDI1 = OFF
Receive MIDI2= ON

Run your one midi out port from the sound card to the back of the 5080: "Midi In 1".

Open one instance of the first multi in Logic. Set its port to your one and only midi out port.

Create 16 tracks in arrange, all assigned to that 5080 Multi, first track = Ch1 . . . last track = Ch16.

Choose bank, patch, and press keyboard.

Good luck!
 
MIDI PROGRAM CHANGES for dual (32 voice) modules

I see a couple of work-arounds, but I have a totally different scheme that works.

first off- I use a 32 voice proteus 2000 that has two midi in ports and one midi out port. Midi in one is for channels (voices) 1-16. Midi in two is for channels 17-32 (voices).
for this module I created two multi-instruments in the environment of Logic. One is for channels 1-16 and the other is for channels 17-32. I named them Proteus A and Proteus
b respectively.
These multi- instruments represent the two midi inputs (midi in ports) on my proteus 2000. If you double click the Multi-instruments a box will come up for programs in each bank and you can name them and create a bank set for each of the banks (mine was for the Proteus 2000).
fisrt you have to highlight each multi-instrument and choose the OPTIONS MENU in the environment window and choose DEFINE CUSTOM BANK MESSAGES. Once the custom bank messages window is up you will need to create the necessary bank messages for your module.
the bank messages will be identical for each of the two multi-instruments you created. I believe the messages are very similar for the XV 3080 (that's what I have). for the XV 3080 I have the necessary multi-instruments with all the banks and program names complete. I use the XV 3080 and the Proteus 2000 every day and have spent a lot of time to research the needed information to create them.
They work GREAT.
I would imagine that the XV 5080 would work fine with multi-instruments set-up for each of the two midi in and two midi out ports of the XV 5080 (like I created for the Proteus 2000, except you would need to use the custom bank messages and program names for the XV 5080. The main difference would be that the necessary banks and program names would have to be added to represent the Sample bank/s and programs.
Once you have completed this task, you will have learned a lot, but the final rewards will be great too.
have fun!
Frank
 

gblack

Logician
That's exactly how to do it, Frank.

But, I think MAZ has only one midi port, and he's either:

1. Using the same (one and only) midi port for both multis, resulting in more than one part receiving each midi channel setting, and also, I suspect -

2. Having each track in Logic set to Midi Channel "All", instead of separating them by channel per part, or having all multiple tracks set to the same channel. Those are the only reasons I can think of why all tracks would revert to a common setting during load.

This is the standard setup for any external synth with 16 parts, and the standard setup for any synth with a second bank of 16 more parts, when played through a software sequencer.
 
Hello all
\{did some checking and found that the
roland xv 5080 has two midi in ports, one midi out port, and one thru port. This is therefore probably like the Proteus 2000 as I previously described. When tracks are created in the Arrange window the two midi in ports need to be addressed separately. Port 1 for midi channels 1-16 and port 2 for midi channels 17-32. This will access the the programs for the full 32 parts of the Roland XV 5080. This is complicated untill a good understanding of how all this works. There really should be a site everyone can go to download and upload all the mult instruments that have already been made up and this would save a lot of work for those of you who don't know how to make the multi-instruments and the custom bank messages. Actually this would just plain save a lot of work for lots of Logic users. Does anyone know of such a website or does anyone know of any reason why there could not be such a website made available to Logic users?
Best!
Frank
 

gblack

Logician
There used to be such sites; I've not looked in years, as I use only Roland hardware synths. The old Emagic Logic disks used to contain setups for many, many common synths - with bank/patch info built in, ready to copy to your song.

I might put those up on one of my sites, together with 5080 info, expansion cards, yada yada. I'm sure I have the templates on my Logic 5 disk. If I manage it, I'll post notice.

It is tricky, but once you accomplish it, the 5080s can provide huge, clean sound, many, many independent tracks, and zero latency.
 

gblack

Logician
It seems the older .lso stuff needs import into Logic 7.2 or earlier. Versions 8 and 9 won't recognize them.
 
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