Sampletank issues

alienimplant

Logician
Thanks, Eli. I suspect there's something in the source audio files that SampleTank doesn't like. I have never had any problems importing from other sampler formats (even from EXS24, which can really boost the quality of some programs when STRETCH is in use), only in building my own. But for the life of me, I can't understand how something could stump SampleTank causing defective instruments when I have exported from two different audio editors on two different computers with the same results. As I mentioned to D-Flo, I'll give this another try very soon and get back to him. I am very moved by his commitment to address the problem. I anticipate the same issue will occur, but maybe this time IK can get to the bottom of it with D-Flo's blessing. Frankly, I was waiting for a minor update to the software that might fix it, but it hasn't been updated since before I noticed the issue.
 

Markdvc

Administrator
Staff member
@alienimplant:

What I would suggest is that you list out everything that might be remotely relevant. Please don't take offense if I restate the obvious, but DAWs being the complicated beasts they are, it is all too often some minor overlooked detail which can be the key to solving a problem, so, for starters (and I quote from the wishlist rules/guidelines) please include all of this:

7. System Details:

-Computer Model

-How much RAM is installed

-Graphic card

-Audio Hardware being used - specifically, Audio and Midi interfaces, any other DSP hardware. Please include details of the driver and other utility software being used.

-The exact OS version you are using

-The exact Logic Version you are using - although it is usually sensible to be using the latest version. There is little to be gained in reporting a bug in an older logic version which was fixed in a more recent or a current version.

-Other audio software such as Audio Units or software such as reason or melodyne which may be running linked to logic. This is especially important reporting issues involving 3rd party software.

-Make sure that Pro App Support is up to date.

... and if there is anything else that you feel worth mentioning, by all means do so, lets see if we can't get to the bottom of this.

kind regards

Mark
 

Eli

Logician
Alien, try this as well:

Try building an instrument from a single raw sample, not exported from another sampler. But one that you know for sure doesn't have any "history". Try it out, make sure it's stable; open and close it several times, etc.

If that works, try importing multiple samples with a similar parentage. And test it similarly - making sure it's rock solid. If that works, then try building an instrument using one from an exported ampler format. And continue to test similarly.

I find with problems like this, it is important to have a systematic method for diagnosing and locating the precise source of the problem.
 

alienimplant

Logician
Thanks Mark. As I said, I had this issue on two separate systems (even in SampleTank's stand alone mode), which pretty much rules out the system in my mind. It's definitely a problem with the samples. Even IK admitted that, but they didn't attempt to figure out why. Every other piece of software I have (wide variety) has no problem opening them. Just a quick reminder: I exported the samples from a loop in two separate audio editors to rule out any issues regarding the original editor I used to generate the samples. I'm going to try Eli's suggestion in the meantime and try and narrow my focus on the source. Thank you for your suggestion.
 

dfloik

Logician
IK is STILL here to listen...

Hello to all,

I have read the current posts about SampleTank and Logic and I just want you guys to know that I do earnestly want to help this situation. Alienimplant, I have yet to receive an email or phone call from you giving me all the specifics that Eli and Jay had mentioned. So please feel free to send that to me as soon as you can. I just didn't want you to think that I had forgotten about you and I look forward to speaking to you soon

Musically Yours,

Derrick Floyd
Educational Sales Manager / Training Manager
IK Multimedia
1153 Sawgrass Corp Pkwy
Sunrise, Fl 33323
O: 954 846 9101
C: 954 882 9206
F: 954 846 9077
Email: derrick.floyd@ikmultimedia.com
 

alienimplant

Logician
The plot thickens: I tried importing only one sample. But being the rebel I am, I chose one of the samples that indeed had direct history. Guess what? It worked! So what's the problem with importing more than one? I'm going to try different combinations of samples until I find out if one of them is causing the problem or SampleTank just isn't up to the task it claims to support. Eli, my thanks to you for suggesting the single sample idea. This is getting very interesting now. I'll follow up with a report on how many samples I am able to pull in. I'm placing my bet on a bug in the velocity import function, but we'll see. Drum roll, please. Haha
 

alienimplant

Logician
Bug now clearly identified!

The verdict is in. It IS a bug in SampleTank that has been the source of my problems. Let me explain this in as much detail as I can in order to eliminate any needless debate about the credibility of my assertion.

I have a set of 13 samples (which you can download here if you feel like torturing yourself). All thirteen samples have the root note of D3 and are labeled accordingly. Strict adherence to IK's instructions on how to import samples has been followed. When building the instrument, you must select "VELOCITY FROM NAME". The goal is to have all 13 samples loaded on the D3 key with their range spanning the entire keyboard, the loudest sample triggering at velocity 127, the next loudest at 126, etc., and finally apply stretch mode to maintain realism and playability across the keyboard.

So what is the bug? Answer: You can't load more than 8 samples at various velocities to the same root note. Go ahead and try any combination of 8 of the 13 samples (you must include the sample labeled 127 because SampleTank can't build the instrument with out a sample on 127). The resulting instrument will be stable. But try to load any combination of 9 or more samples in the fashion described above, and the resulting instrument will crash SampleTank stand-alone or the host application (if you are running SampleTank as a plugin) as soon as you start playing the loaded instrument. Mystery solved. You would think you could import 128 velocity layers if you wanted to (0-127), but you can't. You can import only 8.

I want to thank all respondents who offered constructive advice on how to narrow this issue down-especially Eli. In a way I'm relieved because at least I can build instruments with 8 velocity layers. I'm disappointed that IK never made the effort to investigate this issue when I first drew it to their attention. They blamed the samples when it was never the samples at fault. This experiment proves why it never made a difference whether the samples were converted from AIFF to WAV or were exported from the original loop from 3 different audio editors. My hope now is that IK will address this bug and release an update.

Something funny: with respect to the final instrument I was able to create, the final joke is on me: My whole objective in assembling this first instrument was so I could apply Stretch technology to a set of guitar samples, but the overdrive harmonics are so strong in the highest velocities that Stretch cannot make heads or tails of the correct pitch. As soon as I apply any amount of Stretch to the instrument, the pitch on the strongest velocities goes haywire. C'est la vie! :p

Final note: Don't apply Stretch to samples with a lot of harmonic content and don't try to build instruments with more than 8 velocity layers until that bug is fixed.

PS: I want to apologize in advance if my tone in this post sounds at all smug, pious or otherwise offensive. It's just that I have waited well over a year to get to the bottom of this, and now that I have I'm a little giddy. I hope this research helps someone other than me. And I hope IK admits to and fixes the velocity import limitation. Wow, what an evening! Lastly, my thanks to dfloik, the IK rep, for your understanding and helpful tact. I hope you can forward these results to the developers so this undocumented limitation can be addressed. Btw, I'd still love to be able to save over my own primary instrument names with modified versions, but you can consider that a feature request rather than a bug complaint. ;)
 

Eli

Logician
Hey Alien,

I'm so glad you were finally able to find some resolution with all this. I can "hear" the feeling of relief in your post. :)

So, there's an undocumented limitation of 8 velocity layers. It's actually not surprising - given the age of SampleTank. Huge velocity mappings were probably not so commonplace at the time it was being developed. The unfortunate part is that it was not documented. It probably wasn't even a consideration at the time the manual was being written.

Anyway,here's hoping that all of this gets addressed, improved, and updated, as they work on a much awaited update to this great plug in!
 

dfloik

Logician
Alien,

Thanks for continuing to dig on this issue until you found a resolution. I have been on the road in the midst of 2 national tours (T-RackS Master Classes and Guitar Recording Master Classes) and have been unable to give this the attention that it deserved, though I did finally get a chance to try the samples that Alien had suggested and he was correct! So all of you who thought Alien was just sounding off, now lets give Alien a little credit for sticking with this and getting to the bottom of this issue! Thanks again!

Keep me posted on your other creative endeavors and I hope that IK can still remain a steady part of your arsenal. If you need anything else, dont hesitate to check in...

Be Well,

Musically Yours,

Derrick Floyd
Educational Sales Manager / Training Manager
IK Multimedia
1153 Sawgrass Corp Pkwy
Sunrise, Fl 33323
O: 954 846 9101 ext 308
C: 954 882 9206
F: 954 846 9077
Email: derrick.floyd@ikmultimedia.com
 

alienimplant

Logician
Thank you so much, Derrick. I deeply appreciate the fact that you have my back on this effort. I admit, you were more supportive of me than I have been of IK, but I've always appreciated the company's work overall. I actively promote the Ampeg amp emulation and often recommend Amplitube as well. Cheers, my friend! Let us know if a fix for this limitation is approaching. It's a great excuse for a SampleThank update! ;)
 

EricBradley

Logician
The verdict is in. It IS a bug in SampleTank that has been the source of my problems.

Sorry but this is not a bug.
It's in the manual on page 51:

If you select the VELOCITY FROM NAME ON option, the system will automatically set up to 8 velocity split points, extracting the­ velocity value from­­­­­­­­­ the name of the samples.

But I'm glad that everything is working now and you can go on without having the sampler crashing.
It's also nice to see IK here on the forum.
 

alienimplant

Logician
Touché, Eric. But allowing ST to generate a defective instrument that crashes the program is still a bug in my opinion. Why not just program a message to notify the user that they are going over the limit? Additionally, I think it's hilarious IK support failed to mention this fact over a year ago instead of saying the samples were defective when it's very obvious I have more than 8 samples on the same root key. I regret not spotting this piece of documentation, of course. But in the end it just makes the situation all the more painful in retrospect.
 

alienimplant

Logician
PROPOSAL to delete this thread.

In light of the truths that have surfaced on this subject and because there is more or less a resolution in place, I would like to file a motion to delete this thread. I think at this point justice has been served and it does IK a disservice to leave the thread up here. If no one objects, I'd like to see it removed. I will then post a cheerful followup to the original IK thread with some informative praise that would not be confused with a moan.

What say you, moderator? :)
 

alienimplant

Logician
Biggup to DFlo

Hmm, I thought IK Multimedia was listed in the Developer section of the forum. Either I imagined it being there or it is gone. I would have placed this remark there instead, since I'm hoping to see this thread removed eventually. But I digress, so here's my point:

Ironically, I ended up meeting Derrick Floyd, the educational sales manager and trainer for IK Multimedia, just a short time after this thread met its triumphant end. I didn't tell him until the end of the seminar who I was. I enjoyed it a lot and found Derrick to be genuine, supportive and generous toward users at all levels. I sincerely hope that IK is keenly aware of what an asset they have in him. I appreciated the fact that he presented the value of their entire product line without resorting to an "ours is better than theirs" argument, despite the fact that many people feel strongly that their products are superior in many respects.

I've enjoyed my research into forum comparisons of the Pultec EQ and Fairchild compressor from IK and Universal Audio. To get to the point, the jury is out (although I have my own opinion). The bottom line is that Derrick doesn't waste energy trying to win a subjective argument. He highlights interesting details on the research and effort that goes into effect development like 'input gain staging' and other intriguing factoids. He promotes IK by emphasizing the strengths of its product line and, quite simply, letting the products speak for themselves. I have to say: I was blown away by the Fender effect suite. Derrick sold me.

Anyway, just wanted to share this positive experience with you all. My thanks to Derrick and IK on the whole for a lot of terrific software. I may have bitched at length about SampleTank (feeling much better about it now, thank you), but I own a ton of IK products, many of which I can't live without.

Cheers
 

Eli

Logician
Hey Alien,

Just wanted to echo your praise for Derrick. He was great to work with as I was creating my series of SampleTank videos. He's enthusiastic and sincerely excited about what he does; and that positive energy rubs off on you one way or another. I really enjoyed doing that podcast with him as well. I only wish I had the opportunity to attend one of his seminars. I'm sure he's a GREAT presenter. :thmbup:
 

carayo

New Member
Hi:
When writing this (my first) reply I hadn´t read the whole (huge, massive) discussion/thread. I have to say I´ve really enjoyed it. Not only you guys know what you´re talking about, you can write too!!. Anyway, I wanted to support (my now admired) alienimplant on his second point, which as the conversation evolved sort of perished. Not being an expert producer like you guys but a songwriter who´d rather be one of you in a studio but can´t afford it, I´d like to stress this point as being very important for users as myself.

"2) Allow modifications to main program files instead of forcing me to save them as sub program alternatives.".

In my case, (and i beleive it´ll be the case with most people regarding this issue) it´s not about overwriting the preset. I don´t care about that. It´s about having easy access to the sounds you love!!.
When I purchase an instrument, samples, etc I have the (silly, useless?) habbit of going over the sounds to see which ones fit my conception of music. Chances are I´m going to like 2 violin sounds of the 22 available, because they fit my style better and I want easy access to those, customized or not, overwriting or not. The fact that my selected sound is saved under the parent is very inconvenient and, in my opinion, misses the point.

So you (IK) saved that violin under "Concert Strings/Stradivarious 1970 - Decay" (sorry for the silly examples...). But I´ve added distorsion to my liking and want to access it as "Gritty Lead Violin". Whay the hell would I have to look into the Concert Strings folder for it?. I want it to be in a "dirty strings" menu!!. And I want to access that violin in less than 10 minutes, because I love it!!.:hippy:

It´s all a matter of saving time and getting to the point to speed up the workflow. Why stick to how traditional synthesizers or whatever work with presets?. I think IK should consider this to make their product even better.
 

alienimplant

Logician
"It´s about having easy access to the sounds you love!!"

You are EXACTLY right. You relay the objective better than I did. My method would help, but there may be a better way than I suggested.
 
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