Logic Pro 9 Tempo operations not locking to smpte time?

[John DeBorde]

Can anyone confirm if the Tempo Operations function is not behaving as it should in Logic 9 (& 8 for that matter):

Recently I was trying to program a substantial accelerando between two hit points in a film. I locked down the bar # & smpte time that I wanted to hit and it calculated a curve that would make everything fall within range. However, when I applied the tempo calculation, the end smpte time was about a 1/2 bar off where it should have locked to. I tried all kinds of adjustments but consistently the designated smpte time would not lock to the designated bar #. It was within a range however that it would have been feasible to hit it within the designated tempo range. I tried it in L8 too and had the same problem btw.

Can someone please confirm that this feature is broken, or am I just not using it correctly? When I click the little locks next to the data entry boxes, that should freeze those values and force Logic to calculate the correct tempo change, correct? (assuming you've chosen mathmatically possible values that is).

thanks,
john

 

[John DeBorde]

OK, in the hopes of getting a response on this I am adding some more specific info based on the actual circumstance of my problem:

1. create a new L9 file w/ a start time of 1:07:00:17
2. create locked markers at 1:07:08:17 & 1:08:05:04
3. set the tempo for bars 1-5 to be 120bpm (this is the preroll leading into the cue)
4. starting at bar 5, use tempo operations to 'create tempo curve' between bars 5 & 21, and the smpte times 1:07:08:17 & 1:08:05:04
5. lock down both the position and time fields
6. enter 63 & 90 for the starting and ending tempi
7. for me, it calculates a curve of -0.6439, which is fine, except when you 'apply' this bar 21 is not at smpte time 1:08:05:04

so basically it is not calculating this correctly, thereby making tempo calculations pretty useless for film scoring purposes.

for what it's worth, I entered the same data in DP, and it calculated correctly to make bar 21 land at the appropriate smpte time.

If someone can confirm for me that this is not behaving correctly I would greatly appreciate it, and we can let Apple know so that they will hopefully fix it.

thanks!
john

 

[Jay Asher]

OK, in the hopes of getting a response on this I am adding some more specific info based on the actual circumstance of my problem:

1. create a new L9 file w/ a start time of 1:07:00:17
2. create locked markers at 1:07:08:17 & 1:08:05:04
3. set the tempo for bars 1-5 to be 120bpm (this is the preroll leading into the cue)
4. starting at bar 5, use tempo operations to 'create tempo curve' between bars 5 & 21, and the smpte times 1:07:08:17 & 1:08:05:04
5. lock down both the position and time fields
6. enter 63 & 90 for the starting and ending tempi
7. for me, it calculates a curve of -0.6439, which is fine, except when you 'apply' this bar 21 is not at smpte time 1:08:05:04

so basically it is not calculating this correctly, thereby making tempo calculations pretty useless for film scoring purposes.

for what it's worth, I entered the same data in DP, and it calculated correctly to make bar 21 land at the appropriate smpte time.

If someone can confirm for me that this is not behaving correctly I would greatly appreciate it, and we can let Apple know so that they will hopefully fix it.

thanks!
john

John, in Logic, you cannot divorce time from a bar/beat relationship. If you type in bars 5-21 in Tempo Operations, Logic will determine the SMPTE time those fall on before you apply it based on the existing tempo. So if now you tweak the starting SMPTE time to your setting, notice that the bar/beat position gets moved to 17 ticks later and Logic calculates the end time as 01:07:58:20:79

If in the Marker List you are viewing it in Smpte time, you will see the first marker is at those starting times. If you then hit Apply in Tempo Operations, you will see the SMPTE times do NOT change, but then if you view it as bars/beats , that does change.

While it may indeed require a different workflow for using tempo changes for hits in cues, it is hardly useless or guys like me, John Powell, Michael Levine, John Frizzelll, Klaus Badelt, etc. would not be using it.

 

[John DeBorde]

thanks Jay - so can you help me out and let me know the steps you would take to achieve the result that I am going for above? (ie- program an accelerando to land on and pair a specific bar/smpte time.)

 

[Jay Asher]

When I am spotting a cue if there are a lot of hits I generally do this and I use a cross stick sound on an EXS24 drum kit for it:

As the picture is playing back, I record MIDI notes, usually C#1 at the picture events I want to hit. This puts them in the ballpark. I then tweak them in the Event List, viewing it in SMPTE time and make sure they are 1-5 frames later than the picture event, because if they are dead on, they will always sound early, as Earl Hagen taught us.

I then use Logic's beat mapping to create a tempo map and tweak that until it looks and feels right. (Sometimes I also create markers (without rounding) Then I compose to that.

If however, there are only a few or unimportant ones, I use th fly by the seat of your pants method I describe in my book.

 

[John DeBorde]

OK, so there's not a one step solution for making such a calculation like in DP. Sounds like a good feature to request to me - where would I direct such a request please?

thx,
john