The Never-Ending DAW Arms Race: DP7

mk3

mk3

Logician
In the never-ending DAW arms race to out-feature one another, following the recent release of Logic 9, here comes DP7....

http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/new-70.html

Note the addition of guitar amp and speaker simulations, and channel strips (with miniscule eye-straining controls).

Still, the only DP features I would dearly love to see implemented in Logic are the pitch automation and track folders:

http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/pitch-auto.html
http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/user-interface/track-folders.html

Very clear and elegant implementations of those. Both those features are already present in the current DP6.

mk3
 
Digital Performer is an extremely capable, powerful, and worthy program. They always offer good stuff and their own takes on things, I'm sure this will be no different. But version 7 does feel quite a bit like "catchup" with guitar stuff, channel strips in the editor, etc.

Orren
 
Dear Orren,

Yes, I know DP well...It was my main sequencer and then DAW from the Performer days through DP 4, at which time I fully switched over to Logic and Live. I still use DP as needed at times in collaborations, but I find Logic's workflow and interface far more efficient. I also find that the DP interface still looks like it is optimized for the screen of a Mac SE/30 (and I do remember working on the original Performer on those tiny screens). Still, of course, it is a professional-grade program, and there are still producers doing fine work in it (I suspect the numbers are shrinking, however...).

There are some features I do miss from DP, such as the two mentioned above. Also things like the MIDI arpeggiator....

mk3
 
I also use DP and can tell you that I missed a couple of items in Logic 8: Multiple mixes and the ease of integration of outboard midi synths and gear.
 
music*al said:
I also use DP and can tell you that I missed a couple of items in Logic 8: Multiple mixes and the ease of integration of outboard midi synths and gear.
Click to expand...

Do you mean that those are features of Logic that you miss when you are in DP? If so I agree, I find the integration of outboard MIDI synths and gear in Logic to be unparalleled, thanks to the External Instrument and I/O Plug-in.

Not sure about "Multiple Mixes"...unless you mean multiple Mixers.

Orren
 
Orren,

No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was that in Logic, I could not have multiple mixes of the same tune within the project. To do so I had to save different mixes (even if they're ever so slightly different) as separate projects.

As for the midi implementation in Logic, I found it to be difficult to use (to say the least). The environment looks and acts somewhat archaic and mind you, I am not a heavy midi user. But, I have at any one time 6 or 7 keyboards which I trigger from multiple keyboards (and not in the same combination every time). To change the triggering and destination keyboards seemed like a total pain. But, I can't claim I was a power Logic user.

aL
 
music*al said:
To change the triggering and destination keyboards seemed like a total pain.
Click to expand...

It is a pain. One should be able to simply choose the (MIDI) input source for a given track. This should be a separate column, as in DP, labeled "Input", which would allow one to easily select the input source.

mk3
 
The Physical Input object in Logic no longer makes sense with hot pluggable USB MIDI devices. If you can't guarantee that the same device will come out of the same Physical Input output port then we will never have selectable midi for recording. I know that environments change constantly but to be unable to use the same project in the same studio just because 1 or 2 devices are gone or are new...

Its my biggest disappointment after returning to Logic. Ableton Live handles this beautifully, unfortunately Logic doesn't.

B
 
Hi aL,

music*al said:
in Logic, I could not have multiple mixes of the same tune within the project. To do so I had to save different mixes (even if they're ever so slightly different) as separate projects.
Click to expand...

Like anything with Logic, you can, it's just involved. If you wanted to duplicate your tracks, you could stick the duplicates in folders. Each duplicated track gets its own channel strip, and you could then adjust them slightly for the alternate mixes, etc. To select an individual mix, you'd solo that folder.

Personally, I would much rather have a different song in the same project folder anyway--it would help me keep it separate. I'm actually working on an EP right now in which different artists are contributing completely different mixes/arrangements, and I would hate to have it all in one project!

As for the midi implementation in Logic, I found it to be difficult to use (to say the least).
Click to expand...

Ironically, that's why I stopped using DP around 3.5. Coming from Cubase, I couldn't get my head around the "American" style of sequencing of DP, I was so comfortable with the region-based MIDI editing of the German sequencers like Cubase and Logic. DP has "phrases" but it never let me cut and move around regions of MIDI notes the way I wanted to.

The environment looks and acts somewhat archaic
Click to expand...

Depending on your needs, you'll never even need to look at it.

But, I have at any one time 6 or 7 keyboards which I trigger from multiple keyboards (and not in the same combination every time). To change the triggering and destination keyboards seemed like a total pain. But, I can't claim I was a power Logic user.
Click to expand...

Again, I'm not 100% sure what you want to do, but if your needs are basic enough, you can try creating a software instrument track, and assigning an External Instrument. You simply set the MIDI in and MIDI out and Audio In and Audio Out on the External Instrument plug-in to your keyboard you are triggering, then play any other keyboard you've got to trigger it.

For example, I very often will:
1) Create a software instrument track
2) Add the External Instrument
3) Have it send MIDI to my DSI Mopho (monosynth)
4) Have it receive audio from my DSI Mopho
5) Play my DSI Prophet 08 keyboard to trigger the Mopho

I never need to play in the Environment. It doesn't get simpler than that.

I think Logic's handling of external MIDI instruments, thanks to the External Instrument plug-in, is the best in the biz. You'll need the environment if you want to do advanced key switching or whatever, but not for just using multiple keyboards to trigger other hardware modules.

Orren
 
Orren Merton said:
You simply set the MIDI in and MIDI out and Audio In and Audio Out on the External Instrument plug-in to your keyboard you are triggering, then play any other keyboard you've got to trigger it.Orren
Click to expand...

Orren, you're missing the point of being able to freely select any midi input to any track. The world is long past the miracle that any keyboard in your studio can control the one and only instrument record enabled in the arrange window. The poster states
But, I have at any one time 6 or 7 keyboards which I trigger from multiple keyboards (and not in the same combination every time)
Click to expand...

Logic is great (and I 100% agree with you about the power of region based editing), but it cannot do this simple task of multiple keyboards going to the DAW and being directed out to various instruments. Not through the Sequencer Input to the arranger, and not directly cabled in the environment -have a few USB MIDI devices and enjoy the confusion 🙂

B
 
LivePsy said:
Orren, you're missing the point of being able to freely select any midi input to any track.
Click to expand...

Okay, I see what you're saying. Yes, that is definitely a limitation of Logic. I have to say, it's nothing I've ever personally needed to do, so it's not one I run across, but that's not to say it's not a limitation. Hopefully that will change. Logic has been moving away from the Environment as it's progressed, so I wouldn't be surprised if one day, this limitation is gone. Unfortunately for those who need that feature, that day isn't today.

Orren
 
Orren,

Thanks for you replies, and the info re Logic's way of doing things. But, as you see, there's just not an easy way to say, trigger multiple keyboards and channels then change the set up on the fly. Forget doing splits or multiple channels from one keyboard to a number of other keyboards or modules.

As far as multiple mixes, I suppose the issue for me is when I am working on mixing a tune and try different plugs or settings, I don't want to lose the previous mixes that might have been the best mix I had at that point. DP lets you save as many mixes as you want. I've mixed tunes where I was on mix No. 20 and it's a snap to go from the mix you're working on to A/B it against any prior mix, etc. . . It's a just a very handy and useful feature when you're mixing songs down.

I too think logic is a very powerful DAW, but unlike you, I could not get used to the workflow. DP (and I suppose PT) look and feel like a tape deck to me, so, I can get my head around that!!

aL
 
Just coming back to check on this thread.
Sad that no progress in this on the Logic front. In DP it's much easier to set up a "jam" or multi-player live-recording situation with MIDI, each person playing a different controller routing to a different track.

mk3
 
LivePsy said:
The Physical Input object in Logic no longer makes sense with hot pluggable USB MIDI devices. If you can't guarantee that the same device will come out of the same Physical Input output port then we will never have selectable midi for recording.
Click to expand...
I don't like USB musical devices. Sometimes had over 15 connections via two or three hubs, tried several hubs, but had always problems with the USB bus. And of course the problem in the Environment you describe.

Hours of trying which combinations of plugs and hubs works best, only to find out that nothing works best. Finally I reduced to 8 USB lines and everything possible goes over good old MIDI cables. An 8 port interface offers a stable ports list in the Physical Input and USB works well most of the time.

Btw, I hear seldom complains from the "old" synth cracks. They have up to four large interfaces since many years, they've set their channels, everything works. Those who are forced to change their setup very often, are not happy with Logic, MIDI-wise.


LivePsy said:
I know that environments change constantly but to be unable to use the same project in the same studio just because 1 or 2 devices are gone or are new...
Click to expand...
MIDI channels. No other idea.
 
mk3 said:
In DP it's much easier to set up a "jam" or multi-player live-recording situation with MIDI, each person playing a different controller routing to a different track.
Click to expand...
I basically agree but switching to a certain MIDI channel should not be too much of a challenge ...
 
Not missing DP (user/abuser for 14 years). Logic just mechanically works better. I can record at a lower buffer rate with audio and monitor through the software and I can record midi at pretty much any buffer rate and not feel the latency that bad. I also get hung midi notes in DP and (as of last week working in DP 7.2) I still get hung midi notes. I'll keep DP alive and have many legacy projects in it, and, am just curious how it might be improving but Logic is my day to day choice for going on 2 years now. Are there things I miss about DP? Sure there are! It'll always be my "first love." Man I'm a geek.......
 
My fascination with computer-based DAW began back in the days when I was tape-syncing an Alesis MMT8/HR-16 to a four track cassette recorder.

Despite the space-age advances in DAW evolution since that time, each with their drool-worthy features, there really isn't any one perfect DAW. Yet each major DAW has legions of loyal if not grumpy users. 😉

DP is a venerable Mac-only, feature rich DAW with plenty of power users who love it. I'm pleased to see it continue to evolve as DAW competition is good for all of us.

Given that prices have dropped in recent times, it's much more common for users to have two or more DAW to work with if one really needs a particular feature or set of features.

Daveboy captures my sentiment so I won't restate it. I actively used DP for 3 years starting with v4.5. My first experience with Logic began with v8 and it just completely made itself at home in my brain within the first three months of use. This was a totally unexpected turn of events because at that time I really liked using DP. But the overall feature set and efficient work flow makes Logic Studio a perfect fit for me despite some illogical features. 🙄
 
Wow, I got a lot to learn about DP. I'm still getting over the fact that Logic Studio is the same price as Logic Audio Gold. I thought I lucked up when Emagic was selling the EXS edition of it because the EXS24 was too much money. Now you guys r talking about multiple keyboards with Logic. Times change.
 
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